Update to our Game Moderation Strategy

[Foobrother]

Looks like TMP is continuing to implement information hiding to avoid any comments:

Quote

Updated the information on the red "banned user" banner and in the accepted report note.

[API] Updated the ban expiration time and banned until to always return null.

 

You're wondering why they needed this after hiding the moderator's name?!

Shameful! That's the only word that comes to mind.

[Signore_Derin]

I don't think it's a shame at all. Yes, we used to be able to see which game moderator banned it but personally, I think keeping it secret is a very logical decision because some banned users could break some rules on the official discord server. Without even use the appeal system so they're making sentences '' why did you ban me,withdraw my ban immediately '' and giving orders to the game moderators and even worse, they were even finding their social media accounts and writing directly to them. I thınk ıt's better thet we don't see who banned anymore,they're subjected to unnecessary swearing and threatening messages.

[Foobrother]

22 minutes ago, RizeliBey_53 said:

I don't think it's a shame at all.

I'm not sure if you are referring to my post above? But I wasn't talking about hiding the moderators name.

[partyaap]

1 hour ago, Foobrother said:

Looks like TMP is continuing to implement information hiding to avoid any comments:

 

You're wondering why they needed this after hiding the moderator's name?!

Shameful! That's the only word that comes to mind.

Why do you think it is bad?

[Foobrother]

27 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

Why do you think it is bad?

How can one now check if the punishment given to the player they reported is fair or not according to the rules?

i.e. if you consider, according to the rules and number of active bans, that the player should get 2 weeks ban but, it turns out, for some reason, only 1 week was given? Now you can't check as far as I understand.

 

So that's very good for TMP staff! No more complaint and they can give the punishments they want without being questioned anymore!

But for good players who spend time and energy documenting and submitting reports to make the game experience better, it's, again, very disrespectful.

[Reggie.]

14 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

How can one now check if the punishment given to the player they reported is fair or not according to the rules?

i.e. if you consider, according to the rules and number of active bans, that the player should get 2 weeks ban but, it turns out, for some reason, only 1 week was given? Now you can't check as far as I understand.

 

So that's very good for TMP staff! No more complaint and they can give the punishments they want without being questioned anymore!

But for good players who spend time and energy documenting and submitting reports to make the game experience better, it's, again, very disrespectful.

Why would you need to know how long another player is banned for? There should be no reason that you need to be ensuring if a ban is fair or not for a given player. If the banned player feels as though that their ban is unfair in any way, they are encouraged to make an appeal on the matter to discuss that ban. If they still disapprove of the outcome, they then can make a feedback ticket. Its as simple as that. Ultimately, I can assure you that all moderation work is monitored internally in some way, shape, or form so there really isn't a need for players to check a moderators quality of work.

[Foobrother]

17 minutes ago, Jagman said:

If the banned player feels as though that their ban is unfair in any way, they are encouraged to make an appeal on the matter to discuss that ban. If they still disapprove of the outcome, they then can make a feedback ticket. Its as simple as that.

And why reporters should be removed the right to appeal if they think the punishment given isn't correct? Why should the punishment length be hidden from the reported? Are punishment length hidden in real life when you open a case against someone and a sentence is given against the "criminal"?

 

19 minutes ago, Jagman said:

Ultimately, I can assure you that all moderation work is monitored internally in some way, shape, or form so there really isn't a need for players to check a moderators quality of work.

Fine but why removing the existing capability to provide feedback about some decision which might not be correct?

Really sounds like you guys are desperately trying to reduce the amount of work you're getting! And you're doing that by preventing people from raising more issues. Which is a shame!

[ChrisPatrol]

1 minute ago, Foobrother said:

And why reporters should be removed the right to appeal if they think the punishment given isn't correct? Why should the punishment length be hidden from the reported? Are punishment length hidden in real life when you open a case against someone and a sentence is given against the "criminal"?

 

Fine but why removing the existing capability to provide feedback about some decision which might not be correct?

Really sounds like you guys are desperately trying to reduce the amount of work you're getting! And you're doing that by preventing people from raising more issues. Which is a shame!

Ban lengths are set based on guidance given by the team. If a player is being punished against the rules, what's the problem?

If an admin has rejected a report and not issued a ban, again it's for a reason.

We aren't talking about criminals ingame are we? We are talking about players in game who in reality did no harm by ramming you.

[Reggie.]

1 minute ago, Foobrother said:

And why reporters should be removed the right to appeal if they think the punishment given isn't correct? Why should the punishment length be hidden from the reported? Are punishment length hidden in real life when you open a case against someone and a sentence is given against the "criminal"?

I see where you are coming from here however in most cases I've seen, a reporters opinion on how long a ban should be is much longer than what is fair. If we went with this mentality, we might as well give all players moderation perms so they can ban other players to the way they see fit. This would be mass chaos, no? Everyone that have moderation permissions go through training teaching them what is fair, unfair, kickable, bannable, etc. I would think that someone that has that training has a much better idea on what is fair or not over someone that has not had that training.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Fine but why removing the existing capability to provide feedback about some decision which might not be correct?

Really sounds like you guys are desperately trying to reduce the amount of work you're getting! And you're doing that by preventing people from raising more issues. Which is a shame!

I can assure you that this is not the goal here. Moderation is no small task and requires a great time of the people who volunteer their time to make TruckersMP happen. The only decision really that concerns the reporter is if the report has been declined or accepted, nothing more, nothing less. 

[Foobrother]

1 hour ago, ChrisPatrol said:

Ban lengths are set based on guidance given by the team

Yes and that's exactly what I'm talking about. If the guidance is, for example, 2 weeks ban, but the moderator gave 1 week instead. Who is going to raise it? The person banned? 

@Jagman is saying "all moderation work is monitored internally in some way, shape, or form so there really isn't a need for players to check a moderators quality of work." but due to previous experience I'm personally not confident this is done regularly. And seeing how long it takes GM Leaders to reply to appeals, I reaaaaally doubt they take additional time to check if punishments on reports are strong enough! 

 

As I said, really sounds like TMP are desperately trying to reduce the amount of work they are getting! And they are doing that by preventing people from raising more issues. Which is a shame!

[Foobrother]

1 hour ago, Jagman said:

I see where you are coming from here however in most cases I've seen, a reporters opinion on how long a ban should be is much longer than what is fair. If we went with this mentality, we might as well give all players moderation perms so they can ban other players to the way they see fit. This would be mass chaos, no? Everyone that have moderation permissions go through training teaching them what is fair, unfair, kickable, bannable, etc. I would think that someone that has that training has a much better idea on what is fair or not over someone that has not had that training.

I'm talking about punishments length which are clearly set:

Quote

§2.8 - How bans are issued

The first 3 bans are issued at the staff member’s discretion.

The 4th ban is thirty days.

The 5th ban and consecutive bans are ninety days.

If I report a player with 3 bans already and see that his 4th ban is just 2 weeks I will raise it as an issue. If I can't see the ban end date, I can't raise the issue and I should only rely on GM Leaders to find and fix this problem 

It's also good to know what exact punishments people are getting for the type of offense and the amount of active bans they have.

Why removing this possibility?! Well you're answering this question by showing how worried you are of people sending you appeals.

Well if someone opens an appeal for no reason and the moderator clearly followed the rule and there is no ambiguity, I'm happy to warn/punish people abusing the appeal system and spamming the team. But don't punish the good players by removing from them the right to check the punishment length and raise a problem about it!

 

1 hour ago, Jagman said:

The only decision really that concerns the reporter is if the report has been declined or accepted, nothing more, nothing less. 

No. As I said earlier, in real life, if someone does something bad to you and you open a case against that person. I'm sure you will want to know, not only if the person was punished, but also with which punishment and its length/amount.

[_raffaele_]

1 hour ago, Foobrother said:

And seeing how long it takes GM Leaders to reply to appeals

 

If only Game Moderator Leaders responded to appeals, it would take you maybe 3 or 4 times longer to get a response,

Usually the person who respond to your appeal, is the one who banned you

 

54 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

If I report a player with 3 bans already and see that his 4th ban is just 2 weeks I will raise it as an issue

 

There are already people checking this, if it is the case to lengthen the ban because it is considered too short, they will do it; to check this is not up to you

 

58 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Why removing this possibility?!

 

You don't need it and it's not your job,

The appeal is based on the violation, not the duration of the ban

[Foobrother]

3 minutes ago, _raffaele_ said:

If only Game Moderator Leaders responded to appeals, it would take you maybe 3 or 4 times longer to get a response,

Usually the person who respond to your appeal, is the one who banned you

I'm not talking about appeals to a ban you're receiving. But an appeal to a ban given to someone you reported (i.e. because you consider the moderator didn't apply the rules correctly and the decision isn't right).

In that scenario I personally always had a GM Lead looking after these appeals (and it was taking ages to receive an answer).

 

8 minutes ago, _raffaele_ said:

You don't need it 

Why? Again, that's very affirmative. Maybe you personally don't need it. But don't say that others don't need it. As I said earlier, in real life, if someone does something bad to you and you open a case against that person. I'm sure you will want to know, not only if the person was punished, but also with which punishment and its length/amount. I don't see why the same logic can't be applied here (and it was applied until today).

 

9 minutes ago, _raffaele_ said:

The appeal is based on the violation, not the duration of the ban

Wrong. You can appeal for anything. Especially if a rule isn't taken into account by the staff (by mistake or not) when the decision was taken.

Let me quote again some of the rules that staff should follow:

Quote

 

§2.8 - How bans are issued

The first 3 bans are issued at the staff member’s discretion.

The 4th ban is thirty days.

The 5th ban and consecutive bans are ninety days.

 

 

[_raffaele_]

26 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

i.e. because you consider the moderator didn't apply the rules correctly and the decision isn't right

 

So you mean the Managers probably

 

26 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

But don't say that others don't need it.

 

ok, what purpose would this information be useful for you as a player to know? (ignoring the work that the moderators already do ofc, and how much to keep the evidence available, which is explained below in the report when a player is banned)

 

 

26 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Wrong. You can appeal for anything

 

those who have been banned make the appeal if they think it is unfair or something is wrong, what is the probability that one would make an appeal to get a longer punishment?

 

26 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Especially if a rule isn't taken into account by the staff (by mistake or not) when the decision was taken

 

There are already the people who check this, you don't need to take responsibility

 

[Guest killiash]

More than once in the game I noticed how two players break the same rule, while only one is banned. The second player is kicked or teleported. And all because the moderator wanted it that way, because there is “moderator discretion.”
This may seem like a stupid example, but it is precisely on such little things that the players’ relationship with the moderators grows. 
And do you think that after such actions the player will not think that he is being prejudiced?
The rules are equal for everyone! Or why then create them and ask them to comply.

[El Reja]

1 hour ago, Foobrother said:

I'm not talking about appeals to a ban you're receiving. But an appeal to a ban given to someone you reported (i.e. because you consider the moderator didn't apply the rules correctly and the decision isn't right).

In that scenario I personally always had a GM Lead looking after these appeals (and it was taking ages to receive an answer).

 

Why? Again, that's very affirmative. Maybe you personally don't need it. But don't say that others don't need it. As I said earlier, in real life, if someone does something bad to you and you open a case against that person. I'm sure you will want to know, not only if the person was punished, but also with which punishment and its length/amount. I don't see why the same logic can't be applied here (and it was applied until today).

 

Wrong. You can appeal for anything. Especially if a rule isn't taken into account by the staff (by mistake or not) when the decision was taken.

Let me quote again some of the rules that staff should follow:

 

Excuse me, but we moderators won't issue the punishments that YOU would like to see. As my teammates mentioned several times and you still want to discuss things that do not depend on you, we all have had to go through training and trial periods to get knowledge and improve our skills here. Players have no idea what a punishment should be in X case cause they don't have the training to judge a situation properly. 

 

We have leaders and managers who are constantly reviewing our work, and in case we issue a "2 weeks ban" as you said instead of issuing a 1 month ban due to history, our leaders and managers who are experienced staff members will notice that and will let us know. You as a player have no right to do a job by yourself without any training that should be done by our experienced and high ranked staff members. Here, you are just the one reporting the person, not the one issuing the punishment.

 

We have rules and guides to follow and respect, and i can assure you that if we issue a 1 week ban in X situation, is because that's the punishment that should be issued. Even if you think that the ban should be longer/shorter, it's what the player deserves according to the rules they broke.

 

If your report has been declined and you don't agree with the moderator, you can still make a feedback ticket where a leader/trainer/manager will give you a response. If the report is accepted, then there's nothing else that you need to do, the rest is up to moderators.

[Dispo Z]

4 hours ago, Foobrother said:

How can one now check if the punishment given to the player they reported is fair or not according to the rules?

i.e. if you consider, according to the rules and number of active bans, that the player should get 2 weeks ban but, it turns out, for some reason, only 1 week was given? Now you can't check as far as I understand.

 

So that's very good for TMP staff! No more complaint and they can give the punishments they want without being questioned anymore!

But for good players who spend time and energy documenting and submitting reports to make the game experience better, it's, again, very disrespectful.

Yeah that's why you either use GeForce experience to record or use another tool to record cuz you never know who will report and do you even read the rules?

[Bеаn]

Guess my attempt at moving the topic on failed 

[Be4rdy]

23 hours ago, Bеаn said:

Blocking a road is not "fine," but going into the Discord server to request a mod to come and deal with it—knowing full well that it's not allowed—is also not fine. There are mechanisms to report players; use them.

Despite what people say, you can always get past someone blocking. So all those people who sit behind the person, moaning that they're unable to move, are just doing so for the sake of it. If you were really that desperate to get past them, you would do so. Utilise the /disconnect command.

You do realise he got mass reported and NOTHING was done. zero, zilch, nada. but hey blocking a road is fine just dont dare ask for a mod to actually do their job even when the person blocking has been mass reported....because guess what happens after a set amount of time to these reports........thats right they time out

Loading a save game from the point and ghosting is all fine and dandy...but when your 30 trucks behind them you then start to ruin other peoples day by sending them to space as you "ghost" through them.

[Bеаn]

7 minutes ago, Be4rdy said:

Loading a save game from the point and ghosting is all fine and dandy...but when your 30 trucks behind them you then start to ruin other peoples day by sending them to space as you "ghost" through them.

/disconnect drive passed the incident, and reload at the side of the road - problem solved. 

[Interstate Nomad]

13 hours ago, El Reja said:

Excuse me, but we moderators won't issue the punishments that YOU would like to see.

 

You're excused.

 

@Foobrother didn't ask to issue punishments that the reporting player regards as appropriate. He wants to have the possibility to see if a punishment was issued according to the rules.

 

And no, neither you, your training and knowledge nor your supervising managers can be regarded as trustworthy after the recent stunts the TruckersMP team pulled.

[Foobrother]

14 hours ago, El Reja said:

Excuse me, but we moderators won't issue the punishments that YOU would like to see. As my teammates mentioned several times and you still want to discuss things that do not depend on you, we all have had to go through training and trial periods to get knowledge and improve our skills here. Players have no idea what a punishment should be in X case cause they don't have the training to judge a situation properly. 

 

We have leaders and managers who are constantly reviewing our work, and in case we issue a "2 weeks ban" as you said instead of issuing a 1 month ban due to history, our leaders and managers who are experienced staff members will notice that and will let us know. You as a player have no right to do a job by yourself without any training that should be done by our experienced and high ranked staff members. Here, you are just the one reporting the person, not the one issuing the punishment.

 

We have rules and guides to follow and respect, and i can assure you that if we issue a 1 week ban in X situation, is because that's the punishment that should be issued. Even if you think that the ban should be longer/shorter, it's what the player deserves according to the rules they broke.

 

If your report has been declined and you don't agree with the moderator, you can still make a feedback ticket where a leader/trainer/manager will give you a response. If the report is accepted, then there's nothing else that you need to do, the rest is up to moderators.

If think you're missing some modesty and humbleness training! I've never seen a post so condescending and arrogant from a member of the staff since I'm on this forum. Disgusting. Fortunately the vast majority of TMPs staff are much more open.

 

While a Game/Report Moderator clearly has a better view on what punishments to apply in X situations, they can make mistakes or misunderstand (or miss) some new rules changes at some point. And being a Moderator does not mean people who are not Moderator know nothing and don't understand anything about how things are done or should be done. There are many veteran players here who played TMP for many years, reported and got hundreds of players banned in many situations. I'm sure many of them have as much, if not more, experience than some newly trained Moderators who joined TMP 1-2 years ago when it comes to accurate punishments lengths.

So please have a bit more modesty and respect for all these players instead of spitting at their faces like you just did with your last post.

 

You're saying GM Leads are double-checking the work of GMs. But, maybe I'm missing something, how can a couple of GM Leads review 100% of the reports processed by dozens of Moderators? My understanding is that GM Leads are mainly involved during Feedbacks and Appeals as they don't have the time to review processed reports where nobody is complaining or asking for a review. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

 

Finally on top of that you're not even reading or understanding my messages correctly. Where did I mention that I wanted to do your job or decide of the punishment for or without you?! Thanks to @blabberbeak for pointing it out!

[ChristmarDK]

 

40 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

You're saying GM Leads are double-checking the work of GMs. But, maybe I'm missing something, how can a couple of GM Leads review 100% of the reports processed by dozens of Moderators? My understanding is that GM Leads are mainly involved during Feedbacks and Appeals as they don't have the time to review processed reports where nobody is complaining or asking for a review. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

 

Leading our teams of Game Moderators to make sure your reports and appeals are reviewed professionally and quickly, and providing one-to-one coaching to always improve our moderators.

Explained in Meet The Team as category under Game Moderation leaders > https://truckersmp.com/team

 

So, reports and appeals being reviewed by these people, to improve how Game Moderation and Report Moderation working. In case moderation team making mistakes, which can happen from time to time, as we after all being humans and probably not noticed such mistakes we have done.

 

 

[Foobrother]

6 minutes ago, ChristmarDK said:

 

 

Leading our teams of Game Moderators to make sure your reports and appeals are reviewed professionally and quickly, and providing one-to-one coaching to always improve our moderators.

Explained in Meet The Team as category under Game Moderation leaders > https://truckersmp.com/team

 

So, reports and appeals being reviewed by these people, to improve how Game Moderation and Report Moderation working. In case moderation team making mistakes, which can happen from time to time, as we after all being humans and probably not noticed such mistakes we have done.

 

 

Thanks for this info. But as far as I understand this doesn't mean 100% of the reports processed by the moderators are reviewed/double-checked by the GM Leads? It mainly (or only) happens when a player raises a feedback/appeal?

[partyaap]

19 hours ago, Foobrother said:

If I report a player with 3 bans already and see that his 4th ban is just 2 weeks I will raise it as an issue. If I can't see the ban end date, I can't raise the issue and I should only rely on GM Leaders to find and fix this problem 

How many times have you had to do this?