Update to our Game Moderation Strategy

[Foobrother]

12 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

How many times have you had to do this?

Not many. Maybe 2-3 times in 2 years. BTW I never said moderators were doing a bad job. Don't get me wrong.

But that's exactly why there is absolutely no reason to prevent people from seeing the ban duration. Removing the ban duration prevents people from raising a potential mistake.

 

Now my turn: what benefit do we have by hiding the ban duration?

[partyaap]

1 minute ago, Foobrother said:

Not many. Maybe 2-3 times in 2 years. BTW I never said moderators were doing a bad job. Don't get me wrong.

But that's exactly why there is absolutely no reason to prevent people from seeing the ban duration. Removing the ban duration prevents people from raising a potential mistake.

 

Now my turn: what benefit do we have by hiding the ban duration?

2-3 times in 2 years is not that much, which means there is a decent argument to be made to say it is negligble. Not trying to downplay it, as those 2-3 times have still been important. But I guess it does not outweigh the benefit of hiding it completely.

 

As to the benefits of hiding it, I don't know. The exact reason of why they removed it is not known to me, but I assume it is to battle the "rec ban" culture they mentioned in the blog post as it removes the satisfaction a lot of players have when they see they got someone banned for X amount of time. It doesn't increase in-game activity and it has nothing to do with keeping a GM anonymous, so battling the culture is the only thing I can think of right now. But maybe I am missing something.

 

Also in regards to GML's being mainly involved in feedback tickets, I would say they are not mainly involved with that task. It is more to help management with general questions. Their main task is still leading a team. To quote the knowledge base:

 

"Game Moderator Leaders help out the Game Moderation Managers by being in charge of a smaller subset of Game/Report Moderators. The Game Moderator Leader will check their activity, coach and provide help and tips to any Game/Report Moderator who needs them."

[L-DR@GO]

11 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

2-3 times in 2 years is not that much, which means there is a decent argument to be made to say it is negligble. Not trying to downplay it, as those 2-3 times have still been important. But I guess it does not outweigh the benefit of hiding it completely.

 

As to the benefits of hiding it, I don't know. The exact reason of why they removed it is not known to me, but I assume it is to battle the "rec ban" culture they mentioned in the blog post as it removes the satisfaction a lot of players have when they see they got someone banned for X amount of time. It doesn't increase in-game activity and it has nothing to do with keeping a GM anonymous, so battling the culture is the only thing I can think of right now. But maybe I am missing something.

 

Also in regards to GML's being mainly involved in feedback tickets, I would say they are not mainly involved with that task. It is more to help management with general questions. Their main task is still leading a team. To quote the knowledge base:

 

"Game Moderator Leaders help out the Game Moderation Managers by being in charge of a smaller subset of Game/Report Moderators. The Game Moderator Leader will check their activity, coach and provide help and tips to any Game/Report Moderator who needs them."

Though you made a good point Bro..

But,your second paragraph might be used against you ...

 

I hated that rec ban culture 

[Foobrother]

2 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

2-3 times in 2 years is not that much, which means there is a decent argument to be made to say it is negligble. Not trying to downplay it, as those 2-3 times have still been important. But I guess it does not outweigh the benefit of hiding it completely.

 

As to the benefits of hiding it, I don't know.

I agree it's not something mega important. But what's the point of removing something that doesn't cost anything if there is no benefit to it?

 

4 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

The exact reason of why they removed it is not known to me, but I assume it is to battle the "rec ban" culture they mentioned in the blog post as it removes the satisfaction a lot of players have when they see they got someone banned for X amount of time. It doesn't increase in-game activity and it has nothing to do with keeping a GM anonymous, so battling the culture is the only thing I can think of right now. But maybe I am missing something.

Well if that's the only reason, why showing if someone got banned or not? Because people can still be satisfied to see people banned without knowing for how long? I don't think that's the real reason.

 

6 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

Also in regards to GML's being mainly involved in feedback tickets, I would say they are not mainly involved with that task. It is more to help management with general questions. Their main task is still leading a team. To quote the knowledge base:

 

"Game Moderator Leaders help out the Game Moderation Managers by being in charge of a smaller subset of Game/Report Moderators. The Game Moderator Leader will check their activity, coach and provide help and tips to any Game/Report Moderator who needs them."

I agree but again as far as I understand this doesn't mean 100% of the reports processed by the moderators are reviewed/double-checked by the GM Leads? (that's what others were implying in their posts)

[L-DR@GO]

I have come to a conclusion,that even if a mod is understandable or understanding to a player,The player who reported that player will be angry  and start throwing shades on the Moderator.

 

Haaa!!!!

The first paragraph is Dedicated to the full sentences Professor's in da Forum

Sorry I don't have time for constructions

Am low of Building materials

 

I have seen a lot of players complaining on how they reported a troll, and to their greatest surprise, the troll was still in game.

But, when you check what really happened it was not really a bannable offense etc.

 

TMP is trying to let players know that this is just a Game/Simulation.

But,the rules is making it difficult for strict and Old time Player's to digest.

 

Finally to the Construction workers

The full sentence workers

The Professor's in the Forum

The examiner's 

And the insult workers

Y'all can talk to the hand

 

"Logical Not sentimental"

 If u no ..... u no

 

Peace be with you all  

Am out..

 

I will be watching like a Hawk

[PunisherQQ]

Damn this drama took longer than I expected.

But now that it's over I'm sad 

[_raffaele_]

57 minutes ago, PunisherQQ said:

Damn this drama took longer than I expected.

But now that it's over I'm sad 

 

Be happy! 

 

It's nosense drama, after all the explanations the moderators have given they still would like to continue,

They don't want to understand so they can keep arguing 

[El Reja]

12 hours ago, blabberbeak said:

 

You're excused.

 

@Foobrother didn't ask to issue punishments that the reporting player regards as appropriate. He wants to have the possibility to see if a punishment was issued according to the rules.

 

And no, neither you, your training and knowledge nor your supervising managers can be regarded as trustworthy after the recent stunts the TruckersMP team pulled.

You and foobrother don't know the internal rules at all, so, you both won't know if the ban is correct or not. Again, there's no point in letting you see that cause you both don't know what we have to do as per our internal rules and guides. Again, you are the one reporting, not the one issuing or discussing things about the punishment issued. Isn't really complicated to understand...

 

And again, i invite you to read the comments that Foobrother have posted in the past few days/weeks so you can understand why i said such thing. They literally want to see the punishments to judge something that he they have no idea how to deal with.

[El Reja]

12 hours ago, Foobrother said:

If think you're missing some modesty and humbleness training! I've never seen a post so condescending and arrogant from a member of the staff since I'm on this forum. Disgusting. Fortunately the vast majority of TMPs staff are much more open.

 

While a Game/Report Moderator clearly has a better view on what punishments to apply in X situations, they can make mistakes or misunderstand (or miss) some new rules changes at some point. And being a Moderator does not mean people who are not Moderator know nothing and don't understand anything about how things are done or should be done. There are many veteran players here who played TMP for many years, reported and got hundreds of players banned in many situations. I'm sure many of them have as much, if not more, experience than some newly trained Moderators who joined TMP 1-2 years ago when it comes to accurate punishments lengths.

So please have a bit more modesty and respect for all these players instead of spitting at their faces like you just did with your last post.

 

You're saying GM Leads are double-checking the work of GMs. But, maybe I'm missing something, how can a couple of GM Leads review 100% of the reports processed by dozens of Moderators? My understanding is that GM Leads are mainly involved during Feedbacks and Appeals as they don't have the time to review processed reports where nobody is complaining or asking for a review. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

 

Finally on top of that you're not even reading or understanding my messages correctly. Where did I mention that I wanted to do your job or decide of the punishment for or without you?! Thanks to @blabberbeak for pointing it out!

I'm not being rude, i'm telling the truth that you don't want to hear and still, you wanna discuss things that won't change cause you have an incorrect view on them. If you take my comments personal, is because you don't have the ability to understand and have a serious discussion where we, staff members, are being constantly being attacked by the same group of people (and fun fact, most of them don't even play TMP anymore).

 

Once again, i never said that we don't have mistakes. Everyone does, and that's why we have GMLs, Trainers and Managers that are constantly reviewing our work. I won't explain how we work internally because i would be breaking the ISP, and that kinda triggers me because i'd really like to tell u how things are done so u can understand what we all are trying to say. 

Regarding veteran players and stuff, being an old player doesn't mean you know how to deal with things that have internal rules and guides lol. Of course you will have experience with the game itself, but when it's related to moderation, only members that have been part of this team know and understand why we do X thing in X situation, so, explaining that to the public is quite complicated because most of them times they all think that we do the things in a wrong way, when in fact, they are the ones that don't know how to judge a situation properly.

 

Being "new" or "old" on this community changes nothing when it comes to moderation, because as i said several times and i keep repeating myself, we have to go through specific trainings and trial periods where no matter how old you are, you learn what your trainer teachs you. 

 

Now, talking about GM Leaders and how they review our work, it's quite known that every GML has their own small group of GMs/RMs and he/she is in charge of reviewing their work alongside GMMs. source: https://prnt.sc/_C9CgQlPD-6J 

Considering that every GML has their own group of staff members, it's easier for them to check reports, appeals, bans and other internal things in order to see if the staff member is working correctly as per our public and internal rules. As an extra, GMMs also work with them and everything is easier up there, so, as i said before, there's no need to let players judge our work if we already have experienced staff members who do that all the time. 

You have a wrong "understanding" on how GMLs work.  Please take a look at the KB article "TruckersMP Ranks" so you can understand what every role is about. They all have to review the work of every staff members regardless if there's an appeal/feedback, i don't know why you say that they are mainly involved when there's an appeal or feedback ticket, to be honest.

 

And now talking about the last sentence, you've been discussing that in your last few posts. You want to see the punishments because you want to know if the ban length and stuff are correctly issued. Again, you don't know that because you don't have access to our guides and internal rules. There's no point in letting you see that because you are the one reporting, the punishment is up to us.

[Bеаn]

17 minutes ago, El Reja said:

to do as per our internal rules and guides

Are these the same rules and guides that made this change a reality—the same rules and guides that make it so incorrect ban lengths are issued, thus apparently causing confusion among players? Are they also the rules and guides that now force reporters to be in the dark?

[El Reja]

22 minutes ago, Bеаn said:

Are these the same rules and guides that made this change a reality—the same rules and guides that make it so incorrect ban lengths are issued, thus apparently causing confusion among players? Are they also the rules and guides that now force reporters to be in the dark?

Feel free to make a feedback ticket and our Game Moderation Managers will give you a response to every point you wanna know

I'm a GM following rules and the changes provided by the Management, so, not sure if i can talk much about that.

[Bеаn]

13 minutes ago, El Reja said:

Feel free to make a feedback ticket and our Game Moderation Managers will give you a response to every point you wanna know

No, no—don't palm me off onto someone else. You're the one who's saying these guides and training are the things that allow you to correctly assess situations and issue bans. But if said ban lengths are "incorrect," then surely they're not correct? If something is incorrect, why only allow management to question it? Surely, reporters should be able to question why something hasn't been done correctly—that is the entire purpose of the feedback system, after all.

[El Reja]

31 minutes ago, Bеаn said:

No, no—don't palm me off onto someone else. You're the one who's saying these guides and training are the things that allow you to correctly assess situations and issue bans. But if said ban lengths are "incorrect," then surely they're not correct? If something is incorrect, why only allow management to question it? Surely, reporters should be able to question why something hasn't been done correctly—that is the entire purpose of the feedback system, after all.

These rules are "internal" for a reason, and as a regular staff member i'm not allowed to talk about them here. Everyone knows that they exist, and that's why i mention them on my comments. And yes, thanks to those guides and rules we know how to act and how to deal with every situation respectively. 

Thanks to these rules, there are no bans that have an incorrect ban length and again, i cannot explain how they work. The fact that you think thay they are incorrect doesn't mean that they indeed are, it's just your view on this matter as a player.

[Bеаn]

1 hour ago, El Reja said:

no bans that have an incorrect ban length and again

I beg to differ. If this were the case, then every other staff member who has stated that the reason for removing the ban lengths in-game was because they don't want to display incorrect information are liars. Is that what you're saying?

Source: https://prnt.sc/tiUzXIzMdFkf

[Rico]

38 minutes ago, Bеаn said:

I beg to differ. If this were the case, then every other staff member who has stated that the reason for removing the ban lengths in-game was because they don't want to display incorrect information are liars. Is that what you're saying?

Source: https://prnt.sc/tiUzXIzMdFkf

 3v's comment is related to when punishments are given in game those will be punishments adhering to the punishment guidelines. As GMs cannot see a users profile whilst being in game bans needs to be reviewed after to see if there are any history bans or additional violations by said user. Which is why they may be wrong and not because El Reja is calling others liars.  Once again throughout this topic, there is limited things that you are able to see or unaware of, hence are jumping on the bandwagon and coming to the most absurd conclusion. 

[Bеаn]

24 minutes ago, Rico said:

3v's comment is related to when punishments are given in game those will be punishments adhering to the punishment guidelines. As GMs cannot see a users profile whilst being in game bans needs to be reviewed after to see if there are any history bans or additional violations by said user. Which is why they may be wrong and not because El Reja is calling others liars.  Once again throughout this topic, there is limited things that you are able to see or unaware of, hence are jumping on the bandwagon and coming to the most absurd conclusion. 

He said, and I quote, 'there are no bans that have an incorrect ban length', when there clearly are.

 

Quote

As GMs cannot see a users profile whilst being in game bans needs to be reviewed after to see if there are any history bans or additional violations by said user

They've not been able to do that for years. Why change it now? I don't think this is the reason for the change at all. I have a feeling that this change revolves around people complaining that people in-game aren't getting banned for long enough. So, to combat the complaints, you've removed how long someone is banned.

I do wish people would stop fanning about with NDA this and NDA that and tell us exactly why this change has occurred.

Oh, and in the tab menu, there's an option called 'Show TruckersMP profile' or something like that. This option literally dispels your reasoning.

[Rico]

21 minutes ago, Bеаn said:

They've not been able to do that for years. Why change it now? I don't think this is the reason for the change at all. I have a feeling that this change revolves around people complaining that people in-game aren't getting banned for long enough. So, to combat the complaints, you've removed how long someone is banned.

I hope for the sake of all the theories out there, that something is released to inform you and us as to why these changes have happened as I am a Support Manager I cannot tell you the detailed specifics nor can a team member. The reasonable reasoning here would be, we do not need to know how long X user's ban is if they want it private - if they would like for you to know the specifics they will make their profile public, ban-lengths by GMs are given out to certain guidelines and are followed strictly (as they are monitored actually  for those that cannot believe that. ) However, let's wait for a detailed response from the correct department here and hopefully this will satisfy any curiosities. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Bеаn said:

Oh, and in the tab menu, there's an option called 'Show TruckersMP profile' or something like that. This option literally dispels your reasoning.

For a person that is a big advocate on "intelligent" posts, if the Game Moderator is driving and see's someone crash in front of them do you think that they are going to check their profile and then issue the ban? They will issue the punishment to make sure it is in accordance to guidelines and then complete any necessary changes after. 

[Bеаn]

2 minutes ago, Rico said:

For a person that is a big advocate on "intelligent" posts, if the Game Moderator is driving and see's someone crash in front of them do you think that they are going to check their profile and then issue the ban? They will issue the punishment to make sure it is in accordance to guidelines and then complete any necessary changes after. 

You said they cannot; I was just proving they can. Their ability to check a profile depends on the situation. Say, they're dealing with reports in-game, then they can check it. Sometimes, they pull over and report said player to get a better idea of what happened; then, they also can. There're times when they cannot — which I never disputed. 

I don't think it's very appropriate for a 'moderator' to imply my post was unintelligent when all I was doing was informing you that, at times, they're able to check a player's profile in-game. Of course, you had to pick the only time when they cannot in an attempt to make me look 'unintelligent.'

 

8 minutes ago, Rico said:

I hope for the sake of all the theories out there, that something is released to inform you and us as to why these changes have happened as I am a Support Manager I cannot tell you the detailed specifics nor can a team member. The reasonable reasoning here would be, we do not need to know how long X user's ban is if they want it private - if they would like for you to know the specifics they will make their profile public, ban-lengths by GMs are given out to certain guidelines and are followed strictly (as they are monitored actually  for those that cannot believe that. ) However, let's wait for a detailed response from the correct department here and hopefully this will satisfy any curiosities. 

This is all we've asked for from the outset. We never asked for you lot to get involved, yet here you're 'jumping on the bandwagon.' You're correct; a random player wouldn't need to see how long someone is banned; however, as the majority of our arguments have been saying, surely, reporters should be able to see.

Presently, reporters are meant to have evidence live for 3 months, unless the ban is permanent. However, there is no way to see if a ban is permanent or temporary.

[If Its Itchy,Just Scratch]

You can not apply Real Life Road Rules to a Multiplayer Driving Game, when the majority of the Players do not have a Driving License in Real Life, and many of the Players barely left the Kids Three Wheeler. If you want this, then you need to create an Environment where the Driving Conditions being the Same for All. This means, you need a seperate Server, you have to make sure that the Players who want to play on it, having some kind of Training/Excercise and a final Exam. This includes a seperate Account and Game Profile management, to make sure that Players can not modify their Settings.

As long this is not given, you also can not rely complete on a standardised Punishment System, because each Rule Violation by the Players is different. Some Violations happen by Accident, many Violations happen on Purpose.

 

The Moderators are not to Blame for the System, if the Problem is created by the Management itself! 

 

 

[Bеаn]

1 minute ago, Max.Luemmel said:

You can not apply Real Life Road Rules to a Multiplayer Driving Game, when the majority of the Players do not have a Driving License in Real Life, and many of the Players barely left the Kids Three Wheeler.

They can? License or not, it's a simulator game. It's expected that you have a basic understanding of how the roads work; no one expects you to be fluent in road laws. If you want to drive without having to worry about road rules, Arcade is the place for you. If you're new and unsure, ask in the Discord for someone to come onto Arcade and teach the ropes - I'm sure there'll be someone willing to help out.

 

4 minutes ago, Max.Luemmel said:

This means, you need a seperate Server, you have to make sure that the Players who want to play on it, having some kind of Training/Excercise and a final Exam.

Yesterday (10/10/2023), there were roughly 574 new accounts made. If your idea was a reality, this would mean 574 new players would have to take an exam or complete some kind of training before they could even get anywhere near servers. Who would control these exams? Who would conduct the training? To add even more scale to why your idea would never work, there has been roughly 5,870 new accounts created since 02/10/2023. With the influx of new players daily being so high, it'd be near-impossible to ensure all of them pass an exam and/or complete a training program of some description.
 

10 minutes ago, Max.Luemmel said:

This includes a seperate Account and Game Profile management, to make sure that Players can not modify their Settings.

A separate account, no. Game Profile management - well, that depends on what you want to manage. Having a server where all the settings are the same for everyone sounds good and would ensure that everyone is driving as realistically as possible, etc. A server economy would also help with this.
 

12 minutes ago, Max.Luemmel said:

As long this is not given, you also can not rely complete on a standardised Punishment System, because each Rule Violation by the Players is different. Some Violations happen by Accident, many Violations happen on Purpose.

Any competent staff member should be able to identify the difference between an accident and a purposeful action. Whether that means the punishment is adjusted or not isn't up to us; it's up to whatever these 'guidelines' say.

[_raffaele_]

4 hours ago, Bеаn said:

They can?....

 

You're assuming and you are making conspiracy theories, it's already been explained to you, you don't know what the internal guides are like, you keep complaining and make accusations on something you don't know,

 

Like your propaganda friends who make against TMP, someone "intelligent" would avoid arguing and accusing something they do not know

[Bеаn]

1 hour ago, _raffaele_ said:

You're assuming and you are making conspiracy theories, it's already been explained to you, you don't know what the internal guides are like, you keep complaining and make accusations on something you don't know,

 

What the hell has that post gotta do with conspiracy theories or complaints?

 

1 hour ago, _raffaele_ said:

Like your propaganda friends who make against TMP, someone "intelligent" would avoid arguing and accusing something they do not know

I'm not going to listen to you talk about avoiding arguing when you're the instigator most of the time. 

[L-DR@GO]

1 hour ago, _raffaele_ said:

Like your propaganda friends who make against TMP, someone "intelligent" would avoid arguing and accusing something they do not know

 

I think you have a serious problem

I get your support for the team/TMP...

 

But, you talk or type without reasoning.

What's wrong with arguing about something you don't know ...

How will you know if you don't argue about it?

Why do I keep on arguing with some of the moderators, because they feel the training they went through makes them know all and you, you know nothing, so you have to listen to them even if you are right or wrong.

 

"Their word is their bond"

 

BE...........

 

"Logical not Authoritative"

 

Not everyone loves staying in the dark,your trying to defend them with everything you've got, please be Logical and stop been Radical.

 

you wonder why I keep writing in phrases

you need a better IQ to understand that ..

 

Namste

 

[Rico]

7 hours ago, Bеаn said:

This is all we've asked for from the outset. We never asked for you lot to get involved, yet here you're 'jumping on the bandwagon.' You're correct; a random player wouldn't need to see how long someone is banned; however, as the majority of our arguments have been saying, surely, reporters should be able to see.

Presently, reporters are meant to have evidence live for 3 months, unless the ban is permanent. However, there is no way to see if a ban is permanent or temporary.

I don't see your point in why the reporter should see the ban length given here? One way to mitigate this would be in the report system when the Game Moderator leaves their message, it will say the correct time to leave the ban evidence. If it's a temporary ban - 3 months. If it's something else it would tell you the evidence to be active permanently. 

[Bеаn]

34 minutes ago, Rico said:

I don't see your point in why the reporter should see the ban length given here? One way to mitigate this would be in the report system when the Game Moderator leaves their message, it will say the correct time to leave the ban evidence. If it's a temporary ban - 3 months. If it's something else it would tell you the evidence to be active permanently. 

That's what I said in another post in ways to fix it. I'm not fussed about reporters seeing exact lengths, just as long as they actually know how long to keep the evidence live for.