Juliia Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 28 minutes ago, [S.PLH]Warrior said: We can always compare the video with the game logs so we know that the perpetrator has played on that day of the recording. So we know already is like the matrix It has bugs in the matrix then, since I already did it at the time and the person was still banned In any case, the bans are useless since everyone can circumvent them without fear of being found... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandOfClash Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 13 minutes ago, Juliia said: It has bugs in the matrix then, since I already did it at the time and the person was still banned In any case, the bans are useless since everyone can circumvent them without fear of being found... Is that so?! Don't think your last statement is fully correct, unfortunately. 1 1 - - - 𝐄𝐯𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐑𝐞𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐬𝐭 | 𝐄𝐯𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐬 | 𝐒𝐮𝐩𝐩𝐨𝐫𝐭 | 𝐅𝐞𝐞𝐝𝐛𝐚𝐜𝐤 | 𝐊𝐧𝐨𝐰𝐥𝐞𝐝𝐠𝐞 𝐁𝐚𝐬𝐞 | 𝐀𝐩𝐩𝐞𝐚𝐥 𝐁𝐚𝐧 | 𝐂𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐑𝐞𝐩𝐨𝐫𝐭 | 𝐑𝐞𝐜𝐫𝐮𝐢𝐭𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hγenα Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 4 hours ago, [S.PLH]Warrior said: We can always compare the video with the game logs so we know that the perpetrator has played on that day of the recording. So we know already is like the matrix You say ''We can always compare the video with the game logs'' there is no way you guys will check on every single report that has been submitted to see if it has been more than 7 days or not. Lets keep it real this is not gonna change anything you guys are just limiting off the system that worked fine for a long time now and it looks like you guys cant handle it anymore. if thats the case close down the website reports and focus all on in game moderation and in-game reports i think that will be a great step in the right direction so no more rec ban drama in the chat and the GM's will have full context when they review the in-game report 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PunisherQQ Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 The drama in this section of the forum just beats the ,,rec ban,, in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-DR@GO Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 10 hours ago, [S.PLH]Warrior said: We can always compare the video with the game logs so we know that the perpetrator has played on that day of the recording. So we know already is like the matrix So when there is a Glitch in the MATRIX what would u do .... do you guys have Neo on standby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyaap Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 On 9/19/2023 at 11:39 PM, Be4rdy said: and now mods can have their powertrip and not worry about being found out by the user Define "powertrip". And why should the user have to know? 1 Kind regards, partyaap Driver - Bruijn Logistics Rules | Knowledge Base | Support | Feedback | Recruitment | News | Events | Staff Team *Views and opinions expressed are my own and do not represent anything or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-DR@GO Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 On 9/1/2023 at 4:06 PM, Rebeloutlaw22 said: I understand where the game moderation management personnel are coming from in response to the excessive web reports and moderation that goes on and nothing is this. I read throughout the change log and it said that people would not be able to know the person who issued the punishment to them. Now my thing is this when you apply for the team you take on that responsibility and you know what's going to happen some are going to take the punishment nice and easily some or not and to sit there and hide the person's ID because of previous players behavior is not fair. Yes management has to take in consideration how things operate but at the same time my thing is this if a person gets punished obviously they've done something wrong for the most part however the person who issued the punishment also has to understand there's going to be some negativity and there's going to be some criticism and yes they're probably going to be tagged in discord or stuff like that but to sit there and to hide them from the players so they don't know who issued the punishment I see more issues than anything with that. I think when it comes to the website reports I honestly think that it just needs to be done away with because you already have the in-game reports and with in-game reports it's on a demo and it just I mean it eventually gets answered. To go to a website and to submit a report and then b**** about it two or three days later cuz it hasn't been answered I mean I think the best way to resolve it is as it said keep it at 10 reports max but also taking consideration of where the reports are coming from and also I think in the rules it should state when you are submitting a report to the website it has to meet certain requirements I think that would also reflect on how people would submit a report and over time if they can't follow that format then it would reduce their player report limit from 10:00 to 5:00 for a whole month and doing that in the reduce of play reports submitted to the website would hopefully let people know that if you're submitting something to the website it better be very serious Same here bro... I totally was not in support of hidden a Moderators name ... They have to take responsibility.... Good or Bad .... But..TMP hard to give them more powers. And drivers like u and I.. Mean nothing... U don't have right to say anything U don't have right to complain " Do not talk about ban here or there" The time we complained about them.. To a certain extent...it made some of them rethink there harsh ban .. When it was not really necessary.. Then TMP decided to hide there names.. We who play are also not humans .. We don't get treathten by other players Only moderators... U made them moderators U gave them power Then u hide there names.. Who does that... How do you want them to take correction? We should creat a report / ticket or whatever its called... Naaaa.... "We make up the community" Not just TMP dev alone The real word police don't hide there face or identity... Even with there guns .. When they are wrong people tell them in their face ... #ShowTheirNames They should scrap out web report... Let they be only in-game report... TMP has turned from gaming to report system Scrap it out ..yes I said it And am chilling why saying it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-DR@GO Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 On 9/1/2023 at 4:17 PM, HandOfClash said: Sorry not sorry, but you are not knowing what you are currently talking about, which is fine, as you haven't experienced what some staff members experienced. There been some good reasons why this change has been made. I would simply suggest to be a bit more open minded, not directly looking at the negatives and changes which, possibly, impact your own experience, which I do, regardless, fully understand. It might be unfair for you as you haven't treated any staff members (hopefully) "badly", whilst it's equally unfair for the moderator which simply wanted to be here to help, if not help you. "When you become a game moderator, you should be able to handle serious as well as heavy insults and drama". Do we? I mean, yes, correct, we shall, but not with anything further than that. If your doing what's right .. They will be people to back u up.. ... But.. when it's really and oviously wrong.. Almost everyone will blame u for it ... With all due respect @HandOfClash Your response is also backing up your fellow mods... And what u have gone through.. When it's just a game ..not the real word.. What did y'all go through actually.... We players also go through the same abuse from other aggressive players ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyaap Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, L-DragO* said: Same here bro... I totally was not in support of hidden a Moderators name ... They have to take responsibility.... Good or Bad .... But..TMP hard to give them more powers. And drivers like u and I.. Mean nothing... U don't have right to say anything U don't have right to complain " Do not talk about ban here or there" The time we complained about them.. To a certain extent...it made some of them rethink there harsh ban .. When it was not really necessary.. Then TMP decided to hide there names.. We who play are also not humans .. We don't get treathten by other players Only moderators... U made them moderators U gave them power Then u hide there names.. Who does that... How do you want them to take correction? We should creat a report / ticket or whatever its called... Naaaa.... "We make up the community" Not just TMP dev alone The real word police don't hide there face or identity... Even with there guns .. When they are wrong people tell them in their face ... #ShowTheirNames They should scrap out web report... Let they be only in-game report... TMP has turned from gaming to report system Scrap it out ..yes I said it And am chilling why saying it Stop being so dramatic. I really do not get the point. Why should the person who got banned have to know who issued the ban? What do they gain from that information? Why do you care to know? If the vast majority only abuse this information to harass the moderator, then why would you ever insist in good faith to keep such an abusive system in place? What did you lose from this change other than the pure privilege of knowing who was the moderator? Please explain, because I am lost. 4 1 Kind regards, partyaap Driver - Bruijn Logistics Rules | Knowledge Base | Support | Feedback | Recruitment | News | Events | Staff Team *Views and opinions expressed are my own and do not represent anything or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Reja Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 11 hours ago, User_1605202 said: You say ''We can always compare the video with the game logs'' there is no way you guys will check on every single report that has been submitted to see if it has been more than 7 days or not. Lets keep it real this is not gonna change anything you guys are just limiting off the system that worked fine for a long time now and it looks like you guys cant handle it anymore. if thats the case close down the website reports and focus all on in game moderation and in-game reports i think that will be a great step in the right direction so no more rec ban drama in the chat and the GM's will have full context when they review the in-game report Mistakes can happen and in some cases we could accept those reports BY MISTAKE. However, almost every banned player makes an appeal and if they say "this happened 2 or 3 weeks ago", it's sufficient for us to investigate and remove the ban if needed. In this case, the reporter will of course get the report modified and a punishment for doing that. So, the possibility of bypassing that is almost 0. 16 hours ago, Juliia said: It has bugs in the matrix then, since I already did it at the time and the person was still banned In any case, the bans are useless since everyone can circumvent them without fear of being found... There are no "bugs" in the "matrix", these investigations are manually performed by every GM. As i mentioned above, a GM/RM can make mistakes, however, if the player appeals and/or we notice that the report is old while dealing with it, the ban is gonna be removed and you, the reporter, are gonna be punished. And regarding your last sentence, ban evading isn't as easy as you think right now. Our system has been updated and now if the system notices that you are banned in your main account, it won't let you join in any other linked accounts to your PC/NET/ACC. 1 Kind Regards, El Reja Game Moderator Leader TruckersMP Rules - Appeal System - Report System - Feedback System Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-DR@GO Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 6 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said: Stop being so dramatic. I really do not get the point. Why should the person who got banned have to know who issued the ban? What do they gain from that information? Why do you care to know? If the vast majority only abuse this information to harass the moderator, then why would you ever insist in good faith to keep such an abusive system in place? What did you lose from this change other than the pure privilege of knowing who was the moderator? Please explain, because I am lost. First of all am not in anyway been dramatic.. But if I am .. so are you .. Soo u have the right to ban us anonymously but we don't have the right to no who u are ... That information is very important to us.. So we no the kind of moderator you are .. "If the vast majority?" if you say vast majority abuse the information only to harras moderators ... then you guys are doing everything wrong ... Talking about abusive system.. Same as you moderators you abuse your power... And it's a live simulation.. where you drive with different characteristic of people.. Same in the real word.. But in simulation you are untouchable just Exchange of bad words You can't excape abuse... That's what makes us human ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-DR@GO Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 50 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said: What did you lose from this change other than the pure privilege of knowing who was the moderator? My Right to no the Moderator who Rightfully or wrongfully got me banned.. That's what I lose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juliia Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 17 hours ago, HandOfClash said: Is that so?! Don't think your last statement is fully correct, unfortunately. And yet it's more or less the case, I have Turkish/Russian friends who have been banned in recent days and they are again on ColanderMP, the worst I know of one who even joined your team. Like what there is a real problem 1 hour ago, El Reja said: 17 hours ago, Juliia said: It has bugs in the matrix then, since I already did it at the time and the person was still banned In any case, the bans are useless since everyone can circumvent them without fear of being found... There are no "bugs" in the "matrix", these investigations are manually performed by every GM. As i mentioned above, a GM/RM can make mistakes, however, if the player appeals and/or we notice that the report is old while dealing with it, the ban is gonna be removed and you, the reporter, are gonna be punished. And regarding your last sentence, ban evading isn't as easy as you think right now. Our system has been updated and now if the system notices that you are banned in your main account, it won't let you join in any other linked accounts to your PC/NET/ACC. You can read what I replied to your colleague, can we ask our Russian or Turkish friends for the manipulation for ban evading ? We all know very well that it was simple, and that it always will be, you said this in public precisely to dissuade people reading who this comment. Furthermore, can you tell us the date of this update on your server? just to see if people were able to continue doing it or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyaap Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, L-DragO* said: First of all am not in anyway been dramatic.. But if I am .. so are you .. Soo u have the right to ban us anonymously but we don't have the right to no who u are ... That information is very important to us.. So we no the kind of moderator you are .. "If the vast majority?" if you say vast majority abuse the information only to harras moderators ... then you guys are doing everything wrong ... Talking about abusive system.. Same as you moderators you abuse your power... And it's a live simulation.. where you drive with different characteristic of people.. Same in the real word.. But in simulation you are untouchable just Exchange of bad words You can't excape abuse... That's what makes us human ... Yeah fair, it's perhaps not the vast majority. But it's not a small minority either. Getting harassed is not a rarity, it was almost a weekly guarantee depending on how much work you do. To "victim blame" us for claiming we don't do our work properly and deserve the harassment is ridiculous. I should start unbanning the trolls that intentionally ram people on C-D because I got harassed? Clearly the ban must have been wrong, you are correct. Excellent logic. I am sorry to be this frank and perhaps rude. But you have no idea what you're on about and it is extremely frustrating to read. You're genuinly spreading misinformation and acting as if you're spitting facts. It's not your right to know who banned you. And if you think it is, then why can't you give an argument of why it should be your right? How does making us anonymous encourage abuse in any way? I seriously don't get it. Do players really think we are cowboys that can do whatever we want? That there aren't strict internal rules and procedures to prevent abuse? I honestly would not even know of a way where I could abuse my power without management finding out about it. 4 Kind regards, partyaap Driver - Bruijn Logistics Rules | Knowledge Base | Support | Feedback | Recruitment | News | Events | Staff Team *Views and opinions expressed are my own and do not represent anything or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-DR@GO Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said: Yeah fair, it's perhaps not the vast majority. But it's not a small minority either. Getting harassed is not a rarity, it was almost a weekly guarantee depending on how much work you do. To "victim blame" us for claiming we don't do our work properly and deserve the harassment is ridiculous. I should start unbanning the trolls that intentionally ram people on C-D because I got harassed? Clearly the ban must have been wrong, you are correct. Excellent logic. I am sorry to be this frank and perhaps rude. But you have no idea what you're on about and it is extremely frustrating to read. You're genuinly spreading misinformation and acting as if you're spitting facts. It's not your right to know who banned you. And if you think it is, then why can't you give an argument of why it should be your right? How does making us anonymous encourage abuse in any way? I seriously don't get it. Do players really think we are cowboys that can do whatever we want? That there aren't strict internal rules and procedures to prevent abuse? I honestly would not even know of a way where I could abuse my power without management finding out about it. Please don't quote me wrong .. I never said u should unban trolls in the game .... Yes .. people make mistakes.. But not trolls.. they ram drivers intentionally Stop using that as a mind game.. Doesn't work on me Only if I don't want to talk about it .. Every moderator have their first sentence mind game.... Don't be sorry it's freedom of speech (democracy) Because you are a moderator you no it all Me As a driver or player without any post I no nothing You Moderators always feels y'all knows all.. and your say is final... And where did I spread misinformation? If what am saying it's getting you angry ... Deal with your feelings.... Fact or no fact Am saying my piece I own the game and I play the game .. Why is it not my right to know the moderator that got me banned...?? What is TMP up to? That as players we don't have rights ?? Only moderators. Am giving an argument for sure.. And it's getting into your feelings Anonymous encourages abuse... Because...we can't talk about you About un-necessary ban Getting a player ban ... by wrong id Ban ..using the rules as an excuse.. Maybe you can't do whatever you want ... But, you sure do silly mistakes with the power of a mod.. Yes ..Management don't find out till you get reported.. And not all reports get you scolded That's why you guys brag about ..using the word.... "you can creat a ticket..but it will be waste of time.. because it won't change anything..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavi~ Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, L-DragO* said: My Right to no the Moderator who Rightfully or wrongfully got me banned.. That's what I lose You haven't lost anything. Imagine that before this anonymization change you received a ban, justified or not. During the game you see the name of the staff member who banned you and you want to appeal your ban. Your primary course of action is to send an appeal, the necessary information about your ban and the evaluation of your appeal will be done at this stage, and 95% of the time the situation will be resolved without even sending a secondary message. With the remaining 5% chance, if your appeal was not resolved at the first stage, you can open a feedback about your ban and the suspicion about the issue will be completely resolved at this stage. Now go back to the beginning of this scenario and read it again, assuming you do not know the name of the staff member who banned you. Has anything changed? No. Did you need the name of the staff member in this scenario ? No. So what is the purpose of your insistence on this subject? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyFG Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 9 minutes ago, Mavi~ said: You have nothing to lose. Imagine that before this anonymization change you received a ban, justified or not. During the game you see the name of the staff member who banned you and you want to appeal your ban. Your primary course of action is to send an appeal, the necessary information about your ban and the evaluation of your appeal will be done at this stage, and 95% of the time the situation will be resolved without even sending a secondary message. With the remaining 5% chance, if your appeal was not resolved at the first stage, you can open a feedback about your ban and the suspicion about the issue will be completely resolved at this stage. Now go back to the beginning of this scenario and read it again, assuming you do not know the name of the staff member who banned you. Has anything changed? No. Did you need the name of the staff member in this scenario ? No. So what is the purpose of your insistence on this subject? Are staff member(s) might reveal their nickname with they want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-DR@GO Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Mavi~ said: You have nothing to lose. Imagine that before this anonymization change you received a ban, justified or not. During the game you see the name of the staff member who banned you and you want to appeal your ban. Your primary course of action is to send an appeal, the necessary information about your ban and the evaluation of your appeal will be done at this stage, and 95% of the time the situation will be resolved without even sending a secondary message. With the remaining 5% chance, if your appeal was not resolved at the first stage, you can open a feedback about your ban and the suspicion about the issue will be completely resolved at this stage. Now go back to the beginning of this scenario and read it again, assuming you do not know the name of the staff member who banned you. Has anything changed? No. Did you need the name of the staff member in this scenario ? No. So what is the purpose of your insistence on this subject? Naaaaaaaaaaaa Not 95% please 35% is what it is.... When it comes to appeal been accepted.. Yes . It changed... because we can't complain no more .. As the mod who got us ban is anonymous Now you take what you get...that's the situation currently... Needing the staff name is very important to me . so yes in such scenario... So you don't make such mistakes again.. And feel comfortable about it... My purpose...in the subject I don't like it.... QED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyaap Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 30 minutes ago, L-DragO* said: Please don't quote me wrong .. I never said u should unban trolls in the game .... Yes .. people make mistakes.. But not trolls.. they ram drivers intentionally Stop using that as a mind game.. Doesn't work on me Only if I don't want to talk about it .. Every moderator have their first sentence mind game.... Don't be sorry it's freedom of speech (democracy) Because you are a moderator you no it all Me As a driver or player without any post I no nothing You Moderators always feels y'all knows all.. and your say is final... And where did I spread misinformation? If what am saying it's getting you angry ... Deal with your feelings.... Fact or no fact Am saying my piece I own the game and I play the game .. Why is it not my right to know the moderator that got me banned...?? What is TMP up to? That as players we don't have rights ?? Only moderators. Am giving an argument for sure.. And it's getting into your feelings Anonymous encourages abuse... Because...we can't talk about you About un-necessary ban Getting a player ban ... by wrong id Ban ..using the rules as an excuse.. Maybe you can't do whatever you want ... But, you sure do silly mistakes with the power of a mod.. Yes ..Management don't find out till you get reported.. And not all reports get you scolded That's why you guys brag about ..using the word.... "you can creat a ticket..but it will be waste of time.. because it won't change anything..... Internally we do know which moderator has issued the ban. Why exactly do you need to know? How does it prevent abuse if you know? Why does it prevent you from contacting management to report abuse? At what exact stage in the feedback process is it necessary for you personally to know the name of the moderator that issued a ban incorrectly? Why are you unable to answer these simple questions? Kind regards, partyaap Driver - Bruijn Logistics Rules | Knowledge Base | Support | Feedback | Recruitment | News | Events | Staff Team *Views and opinions expressed are my own and do not represent anything or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-DR@GO Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 8 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said: Internally we do know which moderator has issued the ban. Why exactly do you need to know? How does it prevent abuse if you know? Why does it prevent you from contacting management to report abuse? At what exact stage in the feedback process is it necessary for you personally to know the name of the moderator that issued a ban incorrectly? Why are you unable to answer these simple questions? I have been answering those simple questions.. But u've been ignorant to acknowledge them ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavi~ Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 41 minutes ago, L-DragO* said: Naaaaaaaaaaaa Not 95% please 35% is what it is.... When it comes to appeal been accepted.. Yes . It changed... because we can't complain no more .. As the mod who got us ban is anonymous Now you take what you get...that's the situation currently... Needing the staff name is very important to me . so yes in such scenario... So you don't make such mistakes again.. And feel comfortable about it... My purpose...in the subject I don't like it.... QED Well, it is clear from your ongoing messages that your goal is nothing more than to create a lot of drama and keep the discussion going. The necessary explanations have been given more than once and you insist on not understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_raffaele_ Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 hours ago, L-DragO* said: That information is very important to us.. So we no the kind of moderator you are .. You can't excape abuse... That's what makes us human ... What could lead to online abuse should be avoided as much as possible, such as targeting the person who banned you, is a form of violence and also has a specific name, online harassment/stalking can be a crime, From what you write it sounds like you are looking for a person to revenge against, I suggest you use this time to read/understand the rules and figure out what you did wrong instead of targeting the person who banned you, Everything they do is "recorded", so those who do wrong and those who need to know who did wrong know, you have the methods to appeal the action, knowing who banned you does not help/serve you at any step in this process _raffaele_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavi~ Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 46 minutes ago, PennyFG said: Are staff member(s) might reveal their nickname with they want? I don't think you need this information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyaap Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 24 minutes ago, L-DragO* said: I have been answering those simple questions.. But u've been ignorant to acknowledge them ... You know what I give up. You're correct. I am a cowboy and I can do whatever I want. I could ban you right now and if you submit a feedback ticket there is nothing management can do because I am anonymous! Haha! Let me log in on C-D and ban everyone on sight now since I am anonymous anyway, right? 3 Kind regards, partyaap Driver - Bruijn Logistics Rules | Knowledge Base | Support | Feedback | Recruitment | News | Events | Staff Team *Views and opinions expressed are my own and do not represent anything or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-DR@GO Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 32 minutes ago, _raffaele_ said: What could lead to online abuse should be avoided as much as possible, such as targeting the person who banned you, is a form of violence and also has a specific name, online harassment/stalking can be a crime, From what you write it sounds like you are looking for a person to revenge against, I suggest you use this time to read/understand the rules and figure out what you did wrong instead of targeting the person who banned you, Everything they do is "recorded", so those who do wrong and those who need to know who did wrong know, you have the methods to appeal the action, knowing who banned you does not help/serve you at any step in this process Maybe if you don't no me... Try to know who I am ... okay I don't preach revenge and don't do revenge.. Who told you I did not read the rules sir.. Maybe your one amongst a Moderators good grace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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