[Admin message saying how many people got banned]

^ You do know that people got banned for saying Oxnard was cancer right? So tell me how is that inappropriate?

 

The percentage is for the total capacity across all servers combined so yes the numbers are quite low. 

 

I've driven long enough to know when something is an accident and when its not also, so what's your point? 

[Admin message saying how many people got banned]

The thing is, as part and parcel of multiplayer games we will always have trolls, all we want as a community are ways and means to deter other people from joining the trolls, whether actively or not, it makes it more fun for everyone instead of everyone being so tense because of the number of bad drivers and trolls out there who just want to ruin your day and piss you off more than anything, besides, bans aren't always the answer, kicking people or actively being able to track their movements to know exactly what they are doing and then take action is all that is needed, if people are hacking and someone gets kicked or banned for hacking, don't you think the people who are doing it, not for kicks, but for some other reason would stop using their hacks or be in fear of being banned/kicked also? maybe im too old school, but that's the best way to make the game fun, if you lose 300+ people because they're banned or fear of being banned so what? more legitimate people will join who only wish to play and follow the rules, in my opinion anyway.

 

^ Actually that's a very wrong way of thinking. You will lose players and in the end the servers will be dead. Currently the servers are at 31% total capacity during peak playing times. That's a horrible percentage to have during peak playing times. 

 

The issue with players like yourself is you think anyone that rammed someone or crashed is out to cause issues and troll people. This is far from the case and most of the time it's just a mistake that happens. This mistake gets compounded by players like yourself that expect everyone to be perfect and never have an issue. 

 

I've been hit many times in ETS2 and ATS but a few times by trolls the rest were just mistakes made that are common place when driving in the real world, so I'm alright with that. 

its easy to blame the GPS but its easy to just ignore it and keep to the main road, the GPS reroutes itself then anyway and youre fine, its a matter of people WANTING to go that way, instead of , Oh the GPS says to go this way, so I will anyway. besides, the rules are extremely clear about what is right and wrong and if people cant interpret them, then they will have issues all the time, its simple.

 

This is the most arrogant statement you could have made about the rules. The rules aren't clear at all. Case in point

 

Profanity - Kick / Ban

Swearing or using any words that may be deemed inappropriate or anything similar.

 

So that part where it says that may be deemed inappropriate or anything similar, that's what makes it ambiguous and open to interpretation. Different people are offended by different things. 

[Admin message saying how many people got banned]

^ The rules are far from simple, their VERY ambiguous and open to interpretation. The issue with Oxnard is not that people are purposely taking side roads, its the GPS telling them to take that road. Remember people get a load and the GPS gives them a route. People fall into a pattern and follow the GPS. 

[Admin message saying how many people got banned]

You'd be surprised, you're not trying to scare or threaten players. You're there to entice and promote a friendly environment. I've never seen a community where they've advertised "301 users have been banned and you'll be next if you don't behave" it puts people off the game and doesn't show as a friendly atmosphere. Comes across lkke they're out to ban you or find a reason to and no matter how well behaved everyone makes mistakes, therefore those who make a slight mistake could be liable for a ban.

It's common sense, no one wants to be part of a community where the people running it are seemingly "out to get you" or remind users of statistics.

No I don't run the game but as an active user, an adult and a previously involved with the running of a successful forum - I know when users are not going to come back because they feel the people running it are out to find a flaw with every post/ move etc they make and I would never want to feel like that myself.

It's probably best left the way it is

 

This 1000 times correct. 

 

If you really do ban 300-400 players a day then you'll kill your player base very quickly. Not to mention most of those bans are questionable. 

 

And to the players that are saying it will get rid of the trolls and bad drivers.

 

Guess what it won't. It will only force more trolls to join and cause issues. Want to know why? Because they know that they will get a rise out of you and ban them. You play into their hands easily. 

[Reworking server rules and banning practices/lengths]

As far as I'm concerned, you said the statement and intended to use it as the medical term. Do you have any idea of how many people die a year because of it? Saying that is a truly disgusting thing to say, you will have offended many people who have lost loved ones to it.

 

First off I was diagnosed with brain cancer in October 2015 so don't use that line of thinking on me. 

 

Secondly this might help you http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cancer. 

 

Note : The term cancer is often used to describe a nonmedical condition that is undesirable, destructive, and invasive: “ Watergate was a cancer on the presidency.”

 

See context. 

 

 

So how does a Lead Server Admin in counter strike community give you any experience in being an administrator for a Truckinh MMO? Three is nothing similar apart from the 'Admin' tag.

90% of Bans we consult on between the IGA team and get opinions, I did this tonight to get another view on it.

Appointing a Independant panel is a waist of time and will increase the time that it takes to get a ban appeal either accepted or rejected.

 

Do you have an idea how many players I came across in the almost 5 years of being an LSA? We manage 5 different servers all with a cap of 64 players and branching out to CS:GO as well. There were many times where the only admin on hand was me. So I would handle reports from all the servers in a span of 6-8 hours and jump from server to server dealing with issues. 

 

I probably have more administrative experience then most admins here. 

[Reworking server rules and banning practices/lengths]

I live in a rough-ish part of Leeds. I hear profanity in every corner. Of course, I swear myself, so do people who are 9 or so here. I don't think I've ever seen someone put ear plugs inside a child's ear if profanity can be heard.

Now, I read the rules, and it states "no profanity". Even someone as sweary as myself have never ever used such language in this game, in my year and a bit membership here. OP said something and mentioned "cancer". This to me and many others is a disgusting thing to say, saying it to a place or person. Disgraceful language like that should not be allowed into somewhere where happiness is one of the key aims.

 

You know what context means right? Since cancer has many different meanings and not just the medical term. 

[Reworking server rules and banning practices/lengths]

The hard thing about it is, it will increase work for all admins.

I think the whole admin team already works hard enough to actually keep the servers troll-free / next to their real life.

Like I said, if there was no place to fight your ban to another person, it would be a fine suggestion to have it - but you have an option there already:

-The project managers, which will - if your ban is obviously added by accident remove it.

Also, I might be wrong but I currently see no issue with messaging Clarkinator or I<3VODKA, this has worked fine since the Project Manager rank was added (from my POV).

 

I'm sorry that it will increase your work for the admins, but last I checked it comes with the job of being an admin. If you can't handle it then don't be one? So don't use that argument with me since I'm a LSA for a gaming community. 

[Reworking server rules and banning practices/lengths]

 

Point 1: Profanity / Insulting is at admins own discretion. Although some people don't find some words insulting, another person can take it as offensive.
Point 2: It has always been like that because the admin who banned the player knows the situation more than another admin, then again - if you feel the ban is innapropiate you can send a friendly message to I<3VODKA or Clarkinator.
Point 5: The aim is and has always been to create a friendly community, why would we allow insulting or profanity in that? There are children playing this game aswell, and it makes no sense to actually allow people insulting eachother. I suppose insulting is a different matter in all Counter Strike communities.
Point 6: The admin abuse subforum is either I<3VODKA's or Clarkinator's inbox.

 

 

1. Sorry but anyone can find anything offensive then. So if someone calls me a man and I happen to be a person that see's my gender identity as a woman and tell the person to address me as such and they laugh at that. Can said person get banned for offending me? They insulted me by identifying by the wrong gender. 

 

That is just an example of how you can twist that rule to what ever situation suits you.

 

2. Not a valid excuse or argument for keeping it that way. By that way of thinking we should have kept slavery around since its been like that for hundred of years. So the fault in that kind of thinking?

 

5. Really there are children playing this game? I'd love to see some proof . The point is that this is an internet gaming community. 

 

6. That is not a valid way to go through admin abuse complaints. It keeps it closed off and no one gets any idea of whats going on. 

 

 

This is a game, not magistrates court. Do we really need other admins reviewing other admins' decisions? If you're banned, is it hard to make an appeal? If it's denied, so what. You broke the rules, now you have to deal with the consequences. Next time, try reading the rules, not just glancing. Deal with your ban and don't cry to everyone on the forums.

 

Actually yes you need the ban appeal process to be as impartial as possible. 

 

The you broke the rules is a moot point seeing as how the rules are VERY open ended. 

[Reworking server rules and banning practices/lengths]

^ Do you have an actual valid point or do you want to derail the thread? 

 

Having a different admin look at a ban appeal is the right course of action. There can't be any biased inferred in that type of system. 

[Reworking server rules and banning practices/lengths]

Suggestion Name: Revise the rules and make them less open to interpretation/setup a proper punishment escalation procedure, with fitting ban lengths and proper ban length escalation.
Suggestion Description: At the moment there are players being banned for offenses that shouldn't rise to the level of a ban and admins are banning for their very loose interpretations of rules.
Any example images: Nope.
Why should it be added?: This should be done so the player base can flourish and grew, if the current path continues it will simply case the player base to fall. It also festers a growing discontent from the player base against the mods for the wrongs that are being done to the players.

 

Well from the other thread that got locked after it was deemed to get out of hand I was approached by players to make a topic here for discussion. Hopefully this topic isn't locked as well and the mods can allow players to voice their opinions without the fear of threads being locked or warned.

 

First I will start that I'm speaking from a point of knowledge as a Mod from another gaming community. I've been a Lead Server Admin(LSA) for a Counter Strike Source gaming community for 4 years going on 5 in this June. The only people above me in the power structure are Management(Roots) and LSA's answer directly to them and only them. I have overseen countless bans, admin abuse claims, admin promotion threads, rule making discussions, ban practice discussions, training new admins and also removing admins that break our ToS. 

 

1. My first issue is the current rule sets for the servers are very ambiguous and open to interruption by all the admins on the servers.

 

For example: Profanity - Kick / Ban

Swearing or using any words that may be deemed inappropriate or anything similar.

 

The way that rule is worded leaves it open ended and an admin can kick/ban any player for what that admin MIGHT find inappropriate(example the word cancer). An admin MUST never allow their personal feelings to get involved when punishing a player. This then leads to players being banned for questionable offenses and forcing them to go through a ban appeal process that is also flawed. Which leads me to my second point.

 

 

 

 

2. The admin that banned said player gets to rule on the appeal, this is flawed and needs to be changed over, the admin has a built in bias already since they banned the person.

 

There is a reason why in the court system you have appellate judges and trail judges. You want someone new that isn't biased to look over the evidence and see if the ban/judgement is applied correctly and fairly. I've seen the argument by admins saying well how is another admin supposed to know what happened to get that person banned? The answer is very simple, you make a database where all bans are stored and EVERY SINGLE BAN MUST have proof attached to it. This way any admin can look at the ban appeal and look at the evidence on hand and make a judgement call on if that person was in the wrong or not and if the ban should be lowered or removed. 

 

In the gaming community that I'm apart of we have Source Bans as our database to track them. It's very easy to use and setup so i don't see any issue with you setting up your own easy to manage database where admins provide the proof for the ban so anyone can see it when needed. 

 

In the gaming community I'm apart of only LSA's and Management can review a ban appeal, and if the ban being appealed was done by a member of the LSA or Management team that person CAN'T review the ban appeal. 

 

 

 

3. Ban lengths need to be reworked. This is your current setup:

 

1st - 3rd bans are at admin discretion, meaning that they get to select your ban length depending on the rule that you broke.

4th ban is 1 month, regardless of what happened.

5th ban is 3 months, regardless of what happened.

6th ban is permanent with no chance of unbanning.

 

This is also a very flawed banning practice. Since for the 4th ban you get an auto 1 month ban regardless of what happened is very harsh and runs counter to what a Mod should be doing for the community. Because this will lead to people getting banned for a month for a VERY minor infraction. 

 

As an example of what I believe a proper ban procedure should be I will use one of the rules from the Counter Strike Source community I'm apart of. 

 

Do not destroy/ruin barricades that are already made.Top

This includes shooting away props to gain access to an already barricaded room.

 

We call this cade breaking. Now we follow these setups for punishment and the escalation.

 

Warn > Kick > 1hour ban > 1 day ban > 2-3 day ban > 1 week ban > 2 week ban > 1 month ban > Perma.

 

So as you can see they get 8 chances before we move over to a perma ban. Now keep in mind after their first ban if they come back and cade break again it's not an auto ban we will warn them again and then move to kick and finally another ban. This is done so we don't kill our player base by just mindlessly banning players left and right just to pad our ban count. 

 

Another issue is that there is no cooling off period on your bans. If a player has 3 bans spaced over 6 months and they get their 4th ban they get an auto 1 month regardless of what rule was broken. 

 

We don't do that in the gaming community I'm apart of. What we do is look at the players bans if they have 2 bans for cade breaking and 2 bans for mic spamming. Then if they get a ban for trolling that ban will be for 1 hour. Why you might ask? Because they broke a different rule and we don't lump their past bans that were for different rules into our decision on how long the trolling ban will be. 

 

 

 

4. Your rules all state Kick/Ban with some exceptions. You should move to Warn > Kick > Ban. This will help you keep the servers constantly populated and a much happier player base. 

 

 

 

5. Get rid of these rules Profanity - Kick / Ban

Swearing or using any words that may be deemed inappropriate or anything similar.

 

Insulting Users / Insulting Administration - Temporary / Permanent Ban

Swearing or using any words that may be deemed inappropriate towards other users or administration or anything similar

 

Sorry but everyone hears profanity on a daily basis, either on tv, walking about in the town or city, even at school. So pretending like it doesn't exist won't change a thing.

 

Also the insulting users rule needs to be taken out because if someone crashes into you, the emotional reaction is to call said person a name for doing something stupid. You can't expect people to somehow turn off their emotions and be a mindless drone. You let it go and carry on. 

 

The worst one though is "Insulting Administration" that needs to be salted and burned(Supernatural reference ), we had that as a rule in the Counter Strike Source community and quickly saw that admins would use any slight criticism as an insult and ban players. Being an admin doesn't mean that people can't bad mouth you or make you feel dumb for a mistake you made. It comes with the turf so deal with it. 

 

 

 

 

6. You should have an admin abuse sub-forum where players can post their claims of admin abuse but with proof, that would be the key thing to making abuse claims. As it currently stands all admin abuse claims are done in the shadows, this process needs to be open and transparent for the player base to see that admins that are in the wrong are being punished.

 

I saw a ban appeal for someone that had been banned for having the name negro guerrero for fear of it being a racist name. Guess what in Spanish that means Black Warrior. So an admin saw the word negro and thought it was racist and didn't bother to do their due diligence and find out if it was. The player was banned and forced to make a ban appeal for a wrongful ban. This would be considered admin abuse. 

 

 

 

 

7. Admins need to be aware of the context of words and how they can be used and not assume that there is only one usage for any word. Also they need to be aware that different languages have words that may appear racist in your native tongue but in theirs is not close to being racist.

 

 

Now let the discussion take place and see where it leads us. I hope the mods won't give warning points or verbal warnings in this discussion. 

[Changes to the ban process]

If you are going to say because some people had cancer or know people that have it or had it. Then I'm going to stop you right there, I've been diagnosed with cancer back in October of 2015, so that argument won't work on me. But I know a little something called CONTEXT when it comes to using a word. Perhaps a lesson in the different ways to use cancer is in order?

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cancer

[Changes to the ban process]

^ The "insult" wasn't directed at a person but a location in the game. So now if you say a location is bad and somehow insult it you can get banned? Silly. 

[Changes to the ban process]

^ What's harsh? The truth?

[Changes to the ban process]

^ You say it's not your intention, but by the ACTIONS of your staff this is exactly what is happening to your player base. 

 

Insulting is one thing but seeing people getting banned for saying "Oxnard is cancer" is just plain stupid. Who was the player insulting? The great city of Oxnard? LOL. It's ridiculous things like that is what make the players angry at the mods. 

 

If people can't get mad at some idiot for crashing into them, that seems pretty harsh on your part. It's human nature to be mad at someone when something like that happens. Unless you expect us to be mindless drones and somehow discard our emotions? We have a saying in my gaming community about servers that have VERY strict rules we call them "Christian servers" since those servers literally have the same rules you do. No cussing, no insulting and the list goes on how ridiculous and politically correct the rules are.

 

I feel like I'm caught in a loop with the admin's just repeating the same thing and circling the wagons since they have no real rebuttal to the very real issues that are being brought forth by your player-base. Which mind you keeps the mod alive without the player-base you'd only have the mods playing unless that's what you want? A server where like minded people that live in some crazy Utopia is what you want.  

[Changes to the ban process]

^ It's not worded like "I want to keep trolls" but that's what I understand from the following quote.

I agree that the video is not really showing any real offense at first sight, I might review it again when I get home. Admins can make mistakes too and we are not that stubborn to admit it.

We just try to get a perfect set of rules and a good way of working to do best for everyone. However, we have to disappoint a few guys with every choice we make. There is no ultimate solution so make sure you don't do anything wrong so we don't need to ban you.

 

Then you clearly don't get what he means by what you quoted then. He's not saying keep the trolls, he's saying that there are people that are bad drivers in the game just like there are in real life. This adds a bit of realism to the game and can make it more entertaining for everyone. Sorry but I find it boring if everyone is worried to make a mistake and drive overly cautious for fear of being banned for a minor infraction. 

 

For the video part, nothing in there is ban worthy. But yet an admin banned the player because guess what? The rules are ambiguous as hell, and leads to having different types of bans being done for the same reason. You don't have a uniform system for banning players and the different offenses.

 

 

Unfortunately you don't have a perfect set of rules which is what's causing issues with players. I've also noticed that all the offenses state kick/ban. So do you kick first or ban? Because I've seen plenty of videos where no warning is given and its a straight ban. So you don't give the player a heads up that hey you might want to drive safer or you might get banned. 

 

Your last statement is very arrogant about the rules and what the players can do. Because there will be situations that players can't avoid because of the timing or someone else's actions.  

[Changes to the ban process]

Eh admin abuse. When people can't find excuses, it's all admins or moderators fault, as ever. Do you know why we decided to do this? To open people's minds and think before doing something wrong, it's to prevent people to grief other users and behave correctly and respecting everyone. It's all about respect between players.

 

We had users with 12/13 bans on their history that kept doing what they always did (insulting,ramming,blocking), they have no respect for others, so I can't see why we should give those people the privilege of using our free mod and using our servers that are paid by developers and by those great people that donate money for maintanance. This way people (hopefully) will try to act better, and if they don't, they won't have anymore the joy of playing with others since everything they like to do is to annoy those who simply want to have fun and play with friends.

 

And related to your last post, if you think rules are unclear, you can still open a topic and talk about which rules are not understandable for you and maybe for others.

 

 

1. I'm a Lead Server Admin(LSA) in a Counter Strike Source Community and deal with players and admins on a daily basis. So I know how admins can be quick to jump the gun or take the rules and interrupt them to further their punishment. I've been a LSA for 4 years now going on 5 with that same community. The only thing higher than an LSA is Roots who are Management. So I'm speaking from experience on dealing with admin's abusing their powers and also dealing with players that break the rules. 

 

2. If they have bans for the same exact thing then I would be fine with an escalating length in the ban. For example in our server for Cade Breaking it goes like this. Warn > Kick > 1 hour ban >1 day ban >2-3 day ban >1 week ban >2 week ban > 1 month ban > perma. Now mind you this is if they break the SAME exact rule each time. If they broke a different rule then they start with a warning first and up the chain you go if it continues. What this does is it gives the player a light cooling off period and lets them come back later on and continue to play on the server. Because the goal as a Admin, LSA and Root is to keep your player base at a constant level and also grow it as well. 

 

By moving to a perma ban on their 6th ban even if each ban is for completely different reasons is wrong and only moves to lowering your player base slowly over time and at the same time it will make the players grow to despise the Mods and not come as often to the servers. 

 

The rules are very unclear as it leaves everything up to admin interpretation which leads to more kicks and bans then are really needed, which then makes the player base not as happy and you know where that leads to. Where shall you like for me to open up that topic so we can all discuss the rules that need to be tightened up and be less ambiguous?  

[Changes to the ban process]

The first 3 bans have lengths based on the severity. Since 3 chances are enough, ban 4 and 5 have fixed lenghts, and ban 6 is the final goodbye ban.

 

You can always contact Clarkinator if you feel an admin is abusing it's powers, he will investigate the case and take action when needed.

 

In my opinion the current system is flawed and open to abuse with banning players. Lots of the rules are VERY ambiguous and open to interpretation which leads to varying lengths or types of punishment. This is me coming at it from being a LSA in my other gaming community that has to deal with bans, admin abuse reports, player reports and forums reports. I poured over some of the ban appeals on here and one thing that is glaring is that admins punish for what they see at the moment they get there. So if you don't know what led to the current situation that causes issues in punishment since you yourself didn't see what actually happened and came after the fact.

 

I see a lot of well its hard for other admins to review a ban appeal since they don't know what happened. You know how you solve that? Have a bans database where every ban must have documentation with proof. That way any admin can review the ban appeal. We never allow our admins to review a ban appeal that is for the LSA's and Roots to handle since you need to have the review process impartial and devoid of bias.     

[Changes to the ban process]

Yes it is. As the first page of this topic says, 4th ban is one month regardless of what happened.

 

Then perhaps there should be changes to the rules then if you have people being banned for so long for minor offenses. I come from a different gaming community and we punish based on the severity of the offense not how many bans the player has. Since the bans they have could be for different things that don't pertain to the current issue at hand.

 

Also what might help here is having an Admin abuse forum that everyone can see and post when they feel an admin has wronged them with proof. This gives the admin team transparency and allows everyone to have a process to file grievances without the appearance of it being doing in the shadows.