Allow fatigue simulation

[Interstate Nomad]

10 hours ago, megadethsteve666 said:

That’s IF you spawn in a rest area, most of us don’t because they get extremely crowded as is, imagine going to popular cities that people drive to, imagine trying to get into a repair shop when people use it to spawn and rest, it’ll be gridlock like the Duisburg and Rotterdam and Calais.

Until you can provide envidence, your statement about "most of us" is extremely dubious and I must ignore it.

Your example however has the flaw that it is obviously limited to specific area on a specific server.
TruckersMP and ETS2 is, thankfully, more than just Calais, Duisburg and Rotterdam.
Moreover, rest areas do not only exist at repair shops. There are also parking lots and hotels available. So there can be no talk about gridlocking.

 

10 hours ago, megadethsteve666 said:

It’s like forcing everyone who joins to start inside a owned garage, it’s just one more way to gridlock cities, increase lag and have more people heading the same direction which adds to the percentage of potential accidents. It’s far better to spread people out across cities than it is to say, okay spawn in a rest point because everyone naturally gravitates towards the nearest to their drop off point. If you said, okay only a max of 15 per rest area and you can force sleep if you are near a rest point and are out of traffic flow, then problem solved.

A digital tachograph is a neat additional feature that would increase realism.
Your suggestion to limit rest areas to a maximum amount of 15 players however is, with respect, absurd. How could such a limit be controlled?
 

10 hours ago, megadethsteve666 said:

So by that definition, anyone who overtakes, anyone who goes faster than another player who is going the exact speed limiter, they can be instantly banned and have to constantly record every second on the server to then prove their innocence. That’s dumb. That’s like a cop irl giving you a fine for doing 1 mph over the speed limit. Technically you broke the rules and by your definition, are liable to be punished. 

 

Your comparison is misleading, because speeding is not a violation of in-game rules.

If one has been stopped by the police because of speeding 1mph over the speed limit, that number already includes a tolerance of a certain percentage due to measurement inaccuracies. It would be legit to be fined for, though one might get away with a verbal warning.

 

That is what TruckersMP calls "at administrators discretion".

 

10 hours ago, megadethsteve666 said:

No no one really takes into account the fact that most issues can be simply coded out server side to avoid complications, false reports, false bans etc etc etc etc... take someone hitting someone because they fell asleep at the wheel, yo7 can easily code in so that the server logs each players fatigue level and resets that number whenever they stop and rest, that way, admins can then see if a player has not stopped to rest and is fatigued, then they can review the recorded server footage from that player to see if they ignored the warnings and any rest areas prior to the incident and whether other factors were to blame.that makes the system fair and actually deals with those breaking the rules instead of everyone being guilty until proven innocent which is backwards to how it should be.

Firstly, I clearly stated that "a report will not be accepted without conclusive evidence", which is exactly the meaning of "innocent until proven guilty".

A video showing a truck suddenly coming your way and hits you head-on certainly is a valid proof.
It shows an act of unsafe driving that puts other road traffic participants in danger and hence is an act of reckless driving.

But why do you want or need to prove that an incident of reckless driving was caused specifically by fatigue, as it would not change the fact of a rule violation?

If one intentionally activates the (optional, mind you) fatigue simulation and causes an accident because he ignores fatigue, one still plays to the rules.
Fatigue must not be a freepass.
 

10 hours ago, megadethsteve666 said:

its quite simple, say you end the last session at half fatigue and park inside the company NC, the next session you jump in, grab a load and head out, you only have half the time to rest. It’s easy to say, “oh you should plan this, plan that, get into the routine of this...”, but we are all human, not machines, not ssds and hard drives that instantly know what to do every time and ignore outside stimulation. You always have to take into account and design for people who may have different styles and ways of doing things compared to yourself. Also, as another person here said, it’s easy to say, oh you should plan to do this, irl, that’s fine, take fatigue, irl you feel it and can take action to prevent anything from happening, in the virtual world you are physically disconnected meaning you don’t feel the effects and are less able to prevent them from leading to a bad outcome. Take things like convoys, unless every single member of the convoy rests at the exactly the same time and is driving to the exact same destination, you’re going to have an issue because people will be needing to rest while in convoy and if their driver falls asleep mid convoy....

 

 

As previously mentioned, if you sleep after login, your fatigue level will be reset which gives you some 8 hours to haul cargo or, in other cases, find the next rest area.
One must be quite ignorant to miss an in-game fatigue notification that continues to remind one for 1 game hour to find a rest area. That is not a question of being human or of ways to play. It is a safety notification.
That is like ignoring the notification of a soon-to-be empty gasoline tank, because it is not your kind of way to play.

I might be mistaken, but to my knowledge the majority of convoys have the charasteristic to actually drive to the same destination.
Especially if not all drivers' fatigue level match the same percentage, a proactive planning should include a minimum starting fatigue level and possible rest areas on the route.

And if you are now going to tell me that convoys are not planned beforehand, I loose the bit of faith I have left in you.

 

10 hours ago, megadethsteve666 said:

Ultimately context is everything, saying someone might be a candidate for something is like saying to someone, hey I think you should be doing this or getting this, and saying to someone who you don’t even know that they are a potential candidate for something without any context or evidence is disrespectful because you don’t know that person and the way they operate. 

Are you sure that you only ignored my first paragraph?
Because apparently you have not read anything that I wrote previously, which makes discussing with you not only laborious but also time consuming, as I have to explain everything multiple times to you.

Or did I address a sore point?

 

10 hours ago, megadethsteve666 said:

Its simple, always remember this rule, treat others how you wish to be treated, so if you like disrespecting people and giving your personal outlook on someone on a personal or otherwise unknown level, then expect it receive the same thing in return and if you don’t like it, don’t do it. 

Good point. You should write that down so you do not forget it.

 

10 hours ago, megadethsteve666 said:

Imagine if this was real life and you were discussing something with someone you don’t really know anything about and then you come out with a comment like you dis, “you might be a candidate for autonomous driving”, especially when the conversation is NOT about personal driving skills/levels/ailments, you might want to have emergency services on speed dial because people will take offence to what you are saying.

Your hypothetical example of a threat was amusing but completely unnecessary and, moreover,  way off-topic.
I hereby kindly ask you to refrain from it in the future.

 

10 hours ago, megadethsteve666 said:

Also, everyone has their own goals, their own decisions and plans, they may not be to your specification, but then again, they are nothing to do with you, so if someone wants to just go from A-B without planning for every eventuality, so what? It’s a game, if people want to complain about it, that’s their right to do so, whether you like it or not, that’s life and if you can’t accept that, then you will have a tough time because that’s how the cookie crumbles. 

 

I hate to give bad news to you, but it is not me that does not accept other peoples' opinions and styles.

Like it or not, but IMHO the fatigue simulation is worth to be included in multiplayer, with the restrictions of being optional and maybe only available on the simulation server EU#1, and that for the reasons given in my previous posts.

Have a nice day!

 

 

[Malden86]

@Joao Rodrigues and @megadethsteve666, this is getting out of hand isn't it? In life there will be always someone that will disagree with your opinion. There is no need to keep with this useless confrontation ad nauseum...

[Interstate Nomad]

@Landark and all others following this conversation,

please forgive me for any inconveniences caused.

I am always commited to provide a lively discussion that is enjoyable for everyone.

@Landark kindly reminded me on that I can still progress and do better in this context, which I will gladly work on in future posts.

Again, my apologoies.
 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Joao Rodrigues

[Richard [BR]]

It can cause an accident!

[.StεvƐ.]

@Joao Rodrigues first and foremost, I don’t need to prove anything to you, all you need to do is travel to a popular city and watch where people park up and disconnect from the server, there’s your proof. 

 

Also,  it’s becoming clear to me that you don’t play on busy server or in busy areas very often because you would retract half of what you say immediately, yes, I’m not stupid, I know there’s more than just one rest area in a town, I’ve played both games long enough to know the vast majority of cities and roads like the back of my hand, theissue you will always find is that cities were never designed for multiple people to enter and exit an area, you get the average traffic in Duisburg on EU2 parking up at all the rest spots, there will be queues galore. 

Yes it’s one server and a handful of areas, but it’s still the biggest issue in ETS2MP and has to be taken into account also. 

 

Firstly, it’s a example, not a full blown suggestion, secondly, the power of coding. Simple things like taking the restriction wall that SCS has in the game and pasting it so that as soon as 15 vehicles are counted inside the NCZ of the rest area, the wall appears and a message is displayed to all in the area. Also, it’s not “absurd”, it’s a control measure to reduce people using small rest areas from queuing on the road and being a potential accident. 

 

This is the issue with you, you cannot see examples or anything like that, take any minor thing that is in the rule book and paste that over speeding with the same outcomes, the whole premise of the example was to show that your explanation is wrong, you’re going on about how a rule is violated and therefore punishable, even though on most cases, it’s very difficult to tell who is at fault in a collision like that and so even though, yes a rule has been broken, you cannot punish someone for something you cannot prove or disprove as being their fault or being a dangerous measure. This is something a handful of admins both present and past, fail to comprehend and a lot of players end up false reporting incidents for the same reason. 

 

But by that definition, this whole idea promotes this happening, it promotes people who either make an error of judgement or can’t rest because of other reasons, end up being punished for causing an accident because of the system taking away their control of the vehicle. You can’t just add something that can be potentially dangerous to all road users and then not expect an influx of reports, protests and work for admins having to deal with it. (And if you say “people should plan ahead” then you obviously don’t understand the concept of human beings). 

 

Because it’s like the police investigating a claim that an accident was caused by the passenger grabbing the wheel and forcing the vehicle into oncoming traffic, if you arrest and punish the driver, even though they weren’t in technical control of the situation, then you’re in a heap of doo doo. It’s like arresting someone because they cause a collision because their vehicle aquaplaned or slid on an icy hill. They aren’t in control at the point leading to impact and if it can be proven that it’s out of their control, then it’s unfair to punish for it, same applies here, if it can be proven that the person who caused the collision in fact was in the stage of fatigue where their driver “falls asleep” and that caused the vehicle to collide with another vehicle,then the player isn’t at fault because they can’t predict that’s going to happen at that exact second and if you do punish, then you’re basically making an example out of them for something coded in the game. 

 

You dont get it it do you, there are sometimes factors that are outside of the players control that contribute to the situation. Take your fuel gauge example, (this has happened to me once before) but say you drop your load in a town that doesn’t have a fuel station in close proximity and you don’t own the garage there, you pick up a heavy load and start driving and the notification pops up. Because the heavy load you burn more fuel than average and while climbing a hill near the nearest fuel station you run out of fuel. How can you say that it’s the players fault, they should have listened the warning blah blah blah, especially if they were in the process of listening to the warnings but was out of luck and time. 

Just because for you it seems child’s play to simply do everything like a military operation with a crib sheet of what to do every time you play, doesn’t mean all 2m other users who are in this community do the same thing, that’s human nature, we are all different with different ways of doing and remembering things. 

 

What im talking about is the fact that not every member of a convoy can get the same destination for a job, so say the convoy is going to Berlin, but the only job you can find is Munich or Hannover. 

Pits find to say, oh minimums and planning and all this, but you cannot physicallyplan for every single eventuality, every fatigue level etc, especially if you have strict deadlines, as you normally do with convoys, for when you start, so if members who are having to travel from out of the starting city, then have to rest to then join the convoy, the potential to delay the convoy increases. 

 

Likewise for you in that case, you seem to read a quarter of what I say, get it completely backwards and then try to point it in the opposite direction. The annoying thing about any discussion with you is that you are one sided, you take your opinion on an idea and then never look at the opposing argument and when someone confronts you with that argument, you try to smother your personal opinion over the opposing argument nd pretend your opinion is the law of the world. 

 

Oh believe me I know it off by heart, it’s my cardinal rule, it’s something people like you never taken on board and then wonder why people take a dislike to what you say, especially when you end up being offensive to someone you don’t know. 

 

Thats the thing, it’s not a threat, it’s a reality check, if you feel it’s right to belittle, offend and disrespect someone you don’t know, then you should understand the consequences of your actions. And unless you are to stop being offensive and disrespectful, then I’m not going to refrain anything, besides, unless you are an admin, you can’t tell me what I can or cannot say, just because it hits too close to home with you. 

 

And i I agree we should have a fatigue system, just one that works and isn’t biased or dangerous and is actually suited to the multiplayer constraints, as I said previously, I’m not against having a fatigue system, just not the stock SCS system, because even if it’s optional it’s like making the winter mod optional, it brings its own set of issues and if it’s only one server, what’s the point of the devs coding it in if only a small portion of the community will use it..

 

[ShadowWolf2k7]

first it is a know fact that the server time doesn't stop when you are logged out. second it is also know that server time runs slower then SP time. third your fatigue timer from SP doesn't reset in MP until you actually rest be it in SP or MP. fourth the arguing and fighting about an optional feature that was suggested in the OP as being bad or can cause accidents because someone who turned it on is completely pointless. if implemented it should be an OPTIONAL feature to the game, not limited to just ETS2 EU#1, seeing as how I would love to have the option and reason to use the rest stops in ATS. and with no fatigue simulation in MP I have 0 reason to stop in them unless If I need to step away from my computer for a min or 2. some would say then just play SP. that is fine for a while, but then why ever play MP? will MP ever be a full simulator? no since there is no AI traffic. the reason I play MP is to drive trucks as close to realistic as possible with in the confines of the MP server rules and limitations with my friends. adding in the fatigue simulation would add to mine and others enjoyment of MP. you may not like it, does that bother me, not in the slightest. does your opinion matter to me? yes it does. will it change mine? not one bit.  

 

@megadethsteve666 

"Take your fuel gauge example, (this has happened to me once before) but say you drop your load in a town that doesn’t have a fuel station in close proximity and you don’t own the garage there, you pick up a heavy load and start driving and the notification pops up. Because the heavy load you burn more fuel than average and while climbing a hill near the nearest fuel station you run out of fuel"

 

I would like to point out that, yes, this is their fault. seeing as how there is a fuel gauge in all trucks in both ATS and ETS2, saying its not their fault when they didn't pay attention to their truck is wrong.  is it a bad example, imo, yes it is.

 

 

@megadethsteve666 and @Joao Rodrigues you to both should agree that neither of you will agree with the other, and stop the at length argument.

 

back on topic. if you think that the idea would be bad for the game. don't use it, it is that simple. 

[Interstate Nomad]

@ShadowWolf2k7

 

thank you for your valuable input in this matter.

 

I have already decided to end the discussion with @megadethsteve666 after my previous post, as I clearly stated my ideas, arguments and opinions multiple times before.

 

If he feels the need of further explanation, I hereby cordially invite him to contact me via privat forum message.

 

 

[FernandoCR [ESP]]

4 hours ago, ShadowWolf2k7 said:

if you think that the idea would be bad for the game. don't use it, it is that simple.

This.

 

I don't get why some people have such a hard time to understand "optional". Speed limiter is optional, you enable it, don't complain about you can't drive faster than 90. Rain is optional, you enable it, don't complain about how hard is to see others when it's raining. Playing in EU#2 is optional, don't complain about trolls, bad, reckless or speeding drivers. Driving on the troll-owned areas is optional, don't complain about being rammed constantly.

 

This would be the same, players who enable fatigue shouldn't complain about the driver falling asleep, causing accidents that got them banned. It was their choice, they should've been more careful.

[1974ElCaminoSS [USA]]

On 2/17/2018 at 6:49 AM, FernandoCR [ESP] said:

This.

 

I don't get why some people have such a hard time to understand "optional". Speed limiter is optional, you enable it, don't complain about you can't drive faster than 90. Rain is optional, you enable it, don't complain about how hard is to see others when it's raining. Playing in EU#2 is optional, don't complain about trolls, bad, reckless or speeding drivers. Driving on the troll-owned areas is optional, don't complain about being rammed constantly.

 

This would be the same, players who enable fatigue shouldn't complain about the driver falling asleep, causing accidents that got them banned. It was their choice, they should've been more careful.

I agree on this

[vrobcio]

Maybe activating Ghost Mode for 10s when fading would help? or when your sleep level is too high you can't take any loads

[enex SLOVENIA]

As with everything the player is responsible for their actions. If fatigue is enabled and he gets involved in crash accident because his screen

faded back at the wrong time that is his fault because he was negligent and he did not  stop and take a rest.

 

I'm all for fatigue sim. Is not like a big challenge or a problem for me personally and part of it is because I use it all the time. I see bed icon

becoming blue, I start looking for rest stop. 

 

On the topic of fatigue. Current representation is really bad - blue color filling up the bed icon is really bad way to indicate that you are getting

sleepy. Now red color would be great to warn about you getting tired. Other then that it works well.

[Carrera18]

On 23.02.2018 at 12:39 PM, vrobcio said:

Maybe activating Ghost Mode for 10s when fading would help? or when your sleep level is too high you can't take any loads

As response to what you are saying, it can be an automatic kick instead of Ghost Mode. There will be players who want to use the Ghost Mode feature. But kick, I think it might be a solution.

[DJFrontier]

The idea is really good, but for a game multiplayer with 7,000 players a day and with the CD route so full, accidents would increase considerably by the darkened screens. So for this reason: I disagree. 

[Pixels_12345]

1 hour ago, DJFrontier said:

The idea is really good, but for a game multiplayer with 7,000 players a day and with the CD route so full, accidents would increase considerably by the darkened screens. So for this reason: I disagree. 

Read the previous posts. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by VortexHauler

[Ali.]

I love this idea and honestly love the general thought of having it in-game

It can make the game feel more "Simulation" styled and would become a good addition to TMP  

+1

On 2/16/2018 at 2:13 PM, Richard [BR] said:

It can cause an accident!

 

Ghost mode can be activated when the player is fading in and out of sleepiness 

Also - not sure if previously mentioned but perhaps a auto kick for people who don't sleep? (Maybe not on all servers but primarily EU1)

[Guest]

could cause a lot of unnecessary accidents, from people's screens going dark but It would be nice to activate the ghost mode while the screen is black. 

[[Biu] - Luo Shen]

Good idea, but it probably won't come true 

[Suleyman.53]

nice suggestion. but it could lead to accidents in crowded areas.

[DubStepMad]

I personally would like to see this for the main reason of more realistic simulation enforced on the servers, after all it is an simulator game.
However there is going to be a downside as some have mentioned previously. All/most truck stops will have to become non collision zones to avoid accidents with players rushing into areas to sleep and the size of most truck stops.
Another downside would be the black screen while driving causing accidents, also mentioned previously but maybe the developers could change the transparency of the black screen so visibility is not reduced as must which would cause less accidents of drivers crashing while half asleep in game.

[FernandoCR [ESP]]

On 23/2/2018 at 10:39 AM, vrobcio said:

Maybe activating Ghost Mode for 10s when fading would help? or when your sleep level is too high you can't take any loads

 

On 9/3/2018 at 6:36 PM, DJFrontier said:

The idea is really good, but for a game multiplayer with 7,000 players a day and with the CD route so full, accidents would increase considerably by the darkened screens. So for this reason: I disagree. 

 

On 9/3/2018 at 9:13 PM, CrackPrewier said:

could cause a lot of unnecessary accidents, from people's screens going dark but It would be nice to activate the ghost mode while the screen is black. 

 

On 21/3/2018 at 1:27 AM, [AyYildiz]Suleyman{24} said:

nice suggestion. but it could lead to accidents in crowded areas.

 

56 minutes ago, [TSRVTC] DubStepMad said:

However there is going to be a downside as some have mentioned previously. All/most truck stops will have to become non collision zones to avoid accidents with players rushing into areas to sleep and the size of most truck stops.
Another downside would be the black screen while driving causing accidents, also mentioned previously but maybe the developers could change the transparency of the black screen so visibility is not reduced as must which would cause less accidents of drivers crashing while half asleep in game.

 

You all saw the downsides, but it seems that you didn't see the main point of this suggestion:

It would be an option that each player would have to enable if he/she wanted to have it. No need for "ghost mode", for "auto-kick", for new "non-collision areas" or for any other "safety measures". Players who enable it MUST be aware that their driver is going to be sleepy at some point and plan their journeys accordingly. No darkened/black screens should happen, and if they do, it's the player's responsibility for not having rested when he/she should. Accidents because of dozing would be treated the same as accidents because the player got distracted for whatever reasons: Reckless driving/ramming. Players who don't want to go through the effort of planning their trips or risk being punished because of dozing-accidents, would simply leave the fatigue option disabled.

 

On 24/2/2018 at 11:33 AM, enex SLOVENIA said:

On the topic of fatigue. Current representation is really bad - blue color filling up the bed icon is really bad way to indicate that you are getting

sleepy. Now red color would be great to warn about you getting tired. Other then that it works well.

 

Blue color fills up until the time left for a mandatory rest is short enough, at that moment, the icon turns red and your driver starts yawning. This, in single player, of course, in MP it just doesn't happen because fatigue simulation doesn't work.

 

With the fatigue simulation enabled, MP would be the same as SP, you'd see the bed icon filling with blue, turning to red and your driver starting to yawn, that should be enough indication to know that you need to find a resting place ASAP. And if you see that you won't be able to reach a resting area, or if you reach one and you find it full with other players (quite unlikely, IMO), as it was said in previous posts, you can simply stop anywhere safe, disable the fatigue temporarily and keep driving. Or hit F7+Enter and teleport to the nearest repair station (non-collision area) where you can sleep. These two options solve the dozing problem, so no one has to reach the "black-screen" point.

 

And if some trolls decide to let their drivers doze and crash into other players, well... They can ram whoever they want right now, without fatigue simulation. Report them and get them banned. In the end, it's the same as if player 1 falls asleep (IRL) while playing and rams player 2 heads-on. Player 2 would probably send a video-report leading to a ban for player 1. And it would be definitive, an appeal with "I fell asleep" would be declined with "Next time make sure you are not sleepy before launching MP". A ban appeal with "My in-game driver got asleep" would be declined with "If you can't handle fatigue simulation, leave it disabled". Players must be held accountable for the decisions they made while playing, otherwise, the ban system would be useless.

[enex SLOVENIA]

I'm fine either way. In my opinion doesn't really affect gameplay to such degree that I would feel strongly about this feature. I did wanted to point out at Developers of game choice to make sleep meter

fill up blue which makes no logical sense in terms of brevity and clarity to what it tries to tell. Every GUI element needs to make sense from just glancing it not reading about it from manuals/forums/people.

[Loghaire]

In real life cops check whether you were speeding or not taking break from the tachograf.
Something similar in multiplayer would be nice why not. +1

[Shadii.]

Just as if it would be added, I do not know if I would like to see a player who just falls asleep and gets in the lead xD

[Davnoz]

I Personally like this idea, as it adds to the simulation experience. However, forcing it on users is unfair as they can toggle it in SP. I'm not sure if this would even be possible as well as it is a local setting? This would also most likely cause an upset from the community if it was to be forced upon them so therefore I am going to gove this suggestion -1

[FernandoCR [ESP]]

@iHobbit Who said anything about forcing it on users? It's the opposite, since the beginning it has been said that the fatigue should be an option and disabled by default. Users who wanted to use it would need to enable it.