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Ban history removals/indicators - Suggestion | Discussion


Leff12345

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Please do read the whole text as it contains important factors and arguments which are being stated, so you don't reply the same thing which have already been covered in this topic.
 
 
I'm pretty sure many of you will recognise similar suggestions like this, as they have been discussed alot in the past, but then also unfortunately rejected. I just want to add some points and opinions, including the goal of it hopefully being looked at in a/several different perspective(s) which I'll try my best to lift up.
 
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Suggestion Name: Ban history removals/indicators - Suggestion | Discussion
 
Suggestion Description: So, if you're not already familiar with this suggestion, it is about removing bans from your punishment history* after a period of time, proven innocence, wrong ban, etc. - this suggestion is a bit more general, I don't have any spesific method I prefer to lift up in this to remove/indicate bans from/on the history. I support all of those listed.
 
But to start off, I've been supporting this suggestion in several topics being made about it, but they've been unfortunately rejected as said. One thing which I recognised in all of those other suggestions, was that there were no reason given behind the rejection.
Feel free to read through them as I will include some statements and arguments into this topic;
 

A few other topics does also exist which involves this case..

 

 

When you read through those suggestions, you notice that they're a bit different. But it's the same concept - something to indicate that the bans you've got does not count anymore. Or a system which removes such bans (which I prefer), and then of course only staff can see them, but also then a indication which shows that the ban has expired.

 

Here are some arguments against this listed with a quote of mine;

 

"Users can judge other people because of history, so what? You or me or anyone else can be judged by anyone but when judging, you have to know your limits."

 

- When someone judges me, I don't want a ban to be there even though it has been there for a long time, and I know it has expired. But I've then of course changed. Just the fact that it shows Banned on the profile makes the person who happens to "judge" regocnise it easily and instantly get this to their thoughts: "this person has done something bad - this person may not be a good person". And that gives an automatic sense of how the person can be, which can happen without that the person or the group who are judging, knows it. And then the argument is stating that judging is on each and everyones personal opinion, and they should know their limits - Yes, it's a personal case, I agree with that. But for example a VTC or any other sort of group or community, and of course the general interference on my profile will automatically not be as positive as it would if it were to say; "User has no penalties on record".

It's about principle, people change, and there's lots and lots of amazing people who has bans on their profile (which they have of course learnt from), and then they can't prove it (talking about profile visualization) regardless of how nice and polite person they might be now. It's all about the "possibilty" and "motivational" words I try to focus on here.

That's what I think is wrong and should be considered. But the most important thing of all; discussed on, since as mentioned, the previous suggestions above didn't have any concrete reason why it got rejected (then from a staff member).

And then you can ask, how does it affect me if someone thinks anything about me taking count from my ban(s)? Well, you want in the first place to come forward as a good person (as I assume most would want to), and in some cases were your applying for VTCs, that could be a factor affecting the result.

 

 

"But what about the trolls, how can someone > VTC know if the person happens to be a troll when his/her bans are gone?"

 

- First of all, the bans are of course shown to staff members, so if it happens to be an official team recruitment in TMP, they can see it (but then also an indication as mentioned above which visualizes that the ban(s) is/are expired) which is also being practised now. But if it happens not to be an official TMP recruitment round and a VTC has to look at it, how can they know? Well, if a troll is trolling or is planning to, then it's obvious that he/she will get/high chance of getting banned after the actions, and then of course the bans will be extended in such situations - just as the system is operating now.

So, if the applicant for whatever happens to be a troll, he/she will either be banned or get noticed by it (TMP admins/staff) - no major drawback (from my view).

 

 

"When the bans are forever recorded and publicly shown on the punishment history, it will help prevent more trolls appearing and make people taking it generally more serious."

 

- It's a valid argument, that's for sure. But I believe when you actually get punished, that makes alot more impact one a person, than just having a history record on the profile. Because the trolls doesn't care about the history anyway, so who is it for then?

And then it is something I disagree with that spesific argument - It's impossible for someone to prove to be a good person or have learnt from it. It stays there forever and can't be changed. That's the one thing which comes back all the time as the main argument I have, and what I believe many others also have - ability to change/prove

 

 

Any example images: Nope

 

Why should it be added?: So to have a summed up version: there's really no need to have bans forever publicly shown as bans, without any indication or removal which tells that the user has no bans or has some bans expired (as I can think of and what I assume many others do too)

And it gives the people chance and motivation to change. I remember when I got banned, it was ok, I learned from it and I moved on, and wasn't really a big deal for me. But when I noticed the permament recorded ban on my profile, it instantly gave me a bad look on myself, and I felt like a bad person - which I could then not change or prove with the concrete removal/indication of a ban.

I've now of course recovered from that little experience :P

 

 

And in the end, what's the drawbacks on this? Is it really necessary to not implement a system going for this, does it hurt or hold back anything? That's what I also don't understand.

 

 

*Punishment history shown from my own TruckersMP profile - vizualisation purpose

 

 

Before I end this text, I just want to say that this has nothing to do with my punishment history. It's about the princples I'm supporting, and that I want this discussion to have some progress.

 

So that was the suggestion and what I had to bring up/add on from others. I'm aware of that this has been rejected before, but as mentioned, without any concrete reason I can notice.

So I might just get a valid or obvious reason on why it's like this. But of course, my main goal and what I want is it to be considered and hopefully maybe implemented in some way - if this happens to be valid.

 

I'm really interested in responses and arguments for this, and of course what you in the TruckersMP staff mean and have to say. So please do post what you support/mean, and what I might have said wrong or something else which proves me wrong.

 

- - -

 

Thanks

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Maybe mild bans like mild insulting like calling people idiot or accidental wrong ways etc, maybe those should be removed etc.

 

Everyone should have a second chance.

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3 minutes ago, krazymudkip said:

Any ban that is "proven innocent" would be set as a @BANBYMISTAKE,

and then that ban is removed by the WEB Dev's

 

 

I disagree that anyone with legitimate bans on their profile, to have them removed,

 

Don't do the crime if you can't deal with the consequences. 

 

 

-1 from me 

That's the excact argument I were writing against in the topic;

 

You're stating that when I've done a bad act, I'm forever and ever a bad person, and I cannot prove to be a good guy again which devalues the change I might have done. And remember that bans are not removed the day after, I imagine after a year it will get removed, and that's a long time.

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Yes, I do think this should be added.

 

People can change a lot since they got their ban(s). They may have realised that they shouldn't really do this and then play the game properly as I myself have done as I am in this exact situation. 

 

I do believe people should have a second chance as people can change and I believe a year after not having a ban should prove this.

 

A year is a very long time and people can easily change their ways in that large amount of time. I really do hope the CM/PM or whoever looks at this realises this.

 

+1 from me.

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^ @CentralProcessingCat Yes, of course. The rules clearly states that you can get punished by not following the rules, that's a 100% rightful system to have.

 

But the point is not that "when you're braking a rule, you get a punishment, that's it". It's about improving this - people change, let people change with better motivation and in a bigger quantity because of that feature.

 

The rules could have said everything and anything, and every member would have agree to that. But why not actually discuss them (rules and system) and try to improve them? Is it any bad in that?

So in the text, I cover all of those arguments which are being stated around.

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This is a great idea guys especially if you were banned and then you were taught by your mistakes...One time we all get banned even by mistake and you want your name clear..So it is the need where none want to be on the "blacklist" e.g "One guy I used to play with got banned for helping someone else to unstuck as he had crash but he didn't appeal as he did not known that option so his ban stayed on his profile and he is a great player I want to admit he is following traffic lights,signs,speed limits etc. but he have that ban which want it to be removed from his profile but that won't happen.."so sometimes we have to think before we do something.From my point of view it should be added an option like an apllcation to remove bans,I am not sure though this is a good choice.

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6 hours ago, DJ Lewis said:

Yes, I do think this should be added.

 

People can change a lot since they got their ban(s). They may have realised that they shouldn't really do this and then play the game properly as I myself have done as I am in this exact situation. 

 

I do believe people should have a second chance as people can change and I believe a year after not having a ban should prove this.

 

A year is a very long time and people can easily change their ways in that large amount of time. I really do hope the CM/PM or whoever looks at this realises this.

 

+1 from me.

I am the same :) my last ban was from @Prime and if  i am correct its been a year  and i haven't broken any rules  

 

 

 

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I think the only bans that should be hidden are the ones that have been appealed since the admins agree said player isn't at fault. They have the time stamp for when the user got banned so you know when they got banned and for what reason. Every single time a user logs into MP they accept the rules and they agree they will follow said rules, if you want to keep bans off of your profile then don't break the rules... If a player wants to break the rules for what ever reason then the punishment is a ban and a permanent strike on the players profile.

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1 hour ago, Trucking Gekco said:

I think the only bans that should be hidden are the ones that have been appealed since the admins agree said player isn't at fault. They have the time stamp for when the user got banned so you know when they got banned and for what reason. Every single time a user logs into MP they accept the rules and they agree they will follow said rules, if you want to keep bans off of your profile then don't break the rules... If a player wants to break the rules for what ever reason then the punishment is a ban and a permanent strike on the players profile.

+1 

 

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Like said ealier in this post: everyone deserves a second chance to prove themselves, looking at the fact that we give player 6 within a 1 year timeframe I believe that more than enough chances are given.

 

I also don't know any system (legal or community) that removes punishments from someone's record after a given amoun of time. Every ban on your record counts although bans older than 1 year at the moment a player is reported are not teken into account for deliberatiting if a history ban needs to be issued (1 month, 3 months or permanent).

 

Overall I believe this is a bad suggestion.

Regards
Prime
Service & Data Analyst

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5 hours ago, Prime said:

Like said ealier in this post: everyone deserves a second chance to prove themselves, looking at the fact that we give player 6 within a 1 year timeframe I believe that more than enough chances are given.

 

I also don't know any system (legal or community) that removes punishments from someone's record after a given amoun of time. Every ban on your record counts although bans older than 1 year at the moment a player is reported are not teken into account for deliberatiting if a history ban needs to be issued (1 month, 3 months or permanent).

 

Overall I believe this is a bad suggestion.

I don't think it's easy to compare TruckersMP to a real life legal punishment system. Those are two different things, and by a much smaller scale here. And this is not about "giving people more chances". That system already exists - 6 open bans, ban appeals, [email protected], etc. It's about giving people a bit more of value in their changing - If you change and don't get any bans, there will be no bans publicly displayed (or bans indicated) on your profile as a "reward". And then all of the other smaller reasons explained in the topic.

 

But what's actually the bad in the suggestion, which you mentioned? I didn't quite get that up.

 

9 hours ago, Trucking Gekco said:

I think the only bans that should be hidden are the ones that have been appealed since the admins agree said player isn't at fault. They have the time stamp for when the user got banned so you know when they got banned and for what reason. Every single time a user logs into MP they accept the rules and they agree they will follow said rules, if you want to keep bans off of your profile then don't break the rules... If a player wants to break the rules for what ever reason then the punishment is a ban and a permanent strike on the players profile.

That's an excact argument I've commented against above (between CentralProcessingCat & me), but I will extend it a bit.

 

You're saying that if rules are broken, you can get punished, and that's how it is now. But if we actually look a bit on them and discuss the current system, for then a possible improvement - that's what this is about.

Not that if you're breaking a rule, you get the perm shown ban on your profile. That's 100% fair and alright now, but it can and should be better with the system I'm (and others) are mentioning in the whole topic.

 

Imagine if I got banned, then I'm stamped as a "criminal" for permament on that profile (vizualisation and general - explained and discussed in the topic). But imagine after a whole year, that ban got removed (or removed from public sight), that would be plenty and more than enough time to change and prevent trolls to wait for that which they don't even do.

 

And you're also stating that "if a person wants to break the rules and does it, he/she gets a permanent strike on his/her profile". And that can go for every single ban people have. But remember, not every (and mostly) person delibaretly goes in the game to troll or break the rules, most of them who change and become a good person got a ban beacuse they learned from it. And if we were to have that saying in your minds to argument this, you would say that every person is a bad person and a troll, without thinking about all the other ones with an early ban or similar which they learnt from.

 

14 hours ago, CaptainKostaZ said:

This is a great idea guys especially if you were banned and then you were taught by your mistakes...One time we all get banned even by mistake and you want your name clear..So it is the need where none want to be on the "blacklist" e.g "One guy I used to play with got banned for helping someone else to unstuck as he had crash but he didn't appeal as he did not known that option so his ban stayed on his profile and he is a great player I want to admit he is following traffic lights,signs,speed limits etc. but he have that ban which want it to be removed from his profile but that won't happen.."so sometimes we have to think before we do something.From my point of view it should be added an option like an apllcation to remove bans,I am not sure though this is a good choice.

I guess after a year when the imaginable removal happens, it doesn't matter if the ban was a small or a bigger one. One year is plenty of time to change and as mentioned in the reply above, prevent trolls from clearing their history (which doesn't really work and they don't really do anyway). And remember, the one year "cooldown" is for the last ban, not the one you got yesterday. So that's why I'm lifting up the one year argument here.

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^ @CaptainKostaZ Well, that's not excactly what I'm suggesting here. Imagine if someone got their ban removed the day after, and it happened to be speedhack or something else which is more in the serious end of punishments.

So as my topic is stating, after one year (or x time), the ban will get removed. Then of course only those which are over one year old.

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^ @CaptainKostaZ Already stated in the topic.

 

Short version - one year is enough to have a person changed, and trolls will anyway be banned, so what's the drawback in it? And as mentioned earlier, last ban is the only one getting removed (or the ones which are over one year old). And of course, bans get extended, so there is no problem in that really.

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