Project Update: Back to Basics

[Jeroen]

9 hours ago, Foobrother said:

I think it's not really accurate to compare pre 2020 with 2021-2023 phenomenon. Because the population of players/profiles have changed (would be great to see some stats on players age over time). Unfortunately I wasn't part of TMP before 2021. But from what I can read, it was much more simulation oriented with much more simulation players who progressively moved away to be replaced by different profiles (hence the survey results we have now).

 

 

10 hours ago, Foobrother said:

To me if seems that we are here at an important switch period where many simulation profile players just left or played much less on TMP and the % of racing profiles became higher. And this proportion effect is probably the reason why we see the behaviours and survey results evolution we see today. But statistics won't be able to measure/visualise that since you can't see if which playtime is a playtime of simulation player or playtime of racing player who drives faster (and now even faster). What I'm trying to say is that you can't take for granted what you observed 4 years ago.

 

If you had data on total & avg damage generated and average speed of players over time, that would give an indication on the evolution of profiles. And we would understand better the impact or not of some rules changes I guess.

 

What's your source? Anecdotal evidence is considered the least certain type of information and cannot be used to validate or invalidate evidence.

 

"What I'm trying to say is that you can't take for granted what you observed 4 years ago." Absolutely. This also implies that some of the comments of people advocating against this change on the basis of how the community was like before Road to Simulation can thus not be taken for granted either.

 

We do not track the data you suggested, but it would be great to have it. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Foobrother said:

I can see it says in 2021 you had a huge (maybe record?) number of reports. Since the post was done in JAN 2022 I assume this number is for the entire year? Because the graph is only showing the first 6 months of 2021 for some reason? 

 

Correct, for the whole year. The image was part of a section devoted to the period in which COVID-19 resulted in many lockdowns globally, to indicate what effect it had on our servers and game moderation; COVID-19 lockdowns across Europe were most prominent in 2020 and the first half of 2021, hence why those date ranges were selected for this graph. It's a data visualisation choice to support the story that the section aimed to address.

 

 

9 hours ago, Foobrother said:

But from JUN-2021 the number of players went down drastically. Turns out ETS2 released Convoy just at this time. We can safely say that many players went less on TMP to play on ETS2 Convoy. But for some reason:

• even if the second half of 2021 had more than 50% less players we still have a record number of reports for this year? As you can see above, the number of players on average was pretty much equivalent to 2020.
• we don't show the number of reports during the second half of 2021?

 

Correct. Yes, despite the drop in concurrent players (as that is what the image you posted displayes), we had a record number of reports that year – mainly because of the extraordinary influx of reports in the first five months (as you can see in the graph above). With regard to your second comment, the number of reports were communicated in the blog and a graph was used to visualise the influx of reports across the aforementioned COVID-19 period to display the dynamics over time. As mentioned to the point above, data visualisations are picked to support the story that you try to tell.

[Random_Truck_Driver]

11 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Fair enough. After you have to define "inflicting damage on purpose". Because to me overtaking when you don't have enough space and pushing the other to avoid a frontal collision is "on purpose". Same if you overtake without any visibility and end up crashing with someone.

 

All overtakes can be saved if you keep an eye on the map and ditch the effort as soon as you see incoming traffic. Worst case, don't remerge on the road and go into the grass in your left. Pushing the other to avoid a frontal collision means you did something wrong. It's people committing to the move that creates the accidents. And when i was collateral of a reckless overtake i didn't mind. It only bugged me when it was on purpose, like ghost mode in huge traffic lines, these things...

[Be4rdy]

Get rid of the flaming cars ffs. they are a flaming nuisance 

[Foobrother]

Thanks again for providing answers to my questions.

 

1 hour ago, Jeronimο said:

What's your source? Anecdotal evidence is considered the least certain type of information and cannot be used to validate or invalidate evidence.

Please share the data which proves I'm wrong. I don't have access to data. I don't think you have it anyway. So I can only go with what I have and see. It's not because no data is available (or made available) that people are supposed to go in a direction that suits you.

My view is that ETS2 & TMP was initially a lot more played by mature simulation oriented players than over the last 2-3 years. Probably because the game became more and more popular and more and more customisable and cheap (to buy and to run). Plus Convoy which probably attracted a lot of these mature simulation players.

 

I quite like this article written in October 2019 which describes well the evolution of profiles I think: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/the-enduring-appeal-of-simulation-games

Quote

If you asked me five years ago, maybe ten years ago, I would have been able to tell you pretty categorically that our simulation age group is 45 up to 90
[...]
However, with the popularity and the number of simulation games going to console, that has moved. If you look at statistics about a typical console owner, they are aged anywhere between eight and maybe 30, and therefore I think maybe the demographic of the simulation owner has moved down a lot.

Quote

There is also -- surprisingly, Stallibrass concedes -- an audience of pilots and truck drivers who enjoy simulation games that replicate their day job. That segment of the audience has been there since the early days, says Stallibrass; but in more recent years, it's increasingly difficult to pin down a core audience.

Quote

Partly responsible for that audience shift is the advent of influencers. While there are lots in the space who serve the core audience of serious, rivet-counting simulator enthusiasts, the rise of meme culture has also helped draw attention to the genre. Simulators are ultimately sandboxes: you have a set of tools to play with, and everything has been designed to interact with everything else, leaving the door wide up for wanton silliness, if your heart so desires. This, of course, is fertile ground for influencers. But it also paints these games in a different light, showing them as more than the joyless replications of real life they are often perceived to be.

There are plenty of YouTube videos with hundreds of thousands, if not millions of views, where people tune in to watch disasters unfold. There is a catharsis, it seems, in watching someone woefully under-qualified to pilot a cruise ship become lost to the ocean's cruel waves.

 

 

1 hour ago, Jeronimο said:

This also implies that some of the comments of people advocating against this change on the basis of how the community was like before Road to Simulation can thus not be taken for granted either.

You lost me. Which comments are you talking about?

 

1 hour ago, Jeronimο said:

[...] mainly because of the extraordinary influx of reports in the first five months (as you can see in the graph above). With regard to your second comment, the number of reports were communicated in the blog and a graph was used to visualise the influx of reports across the aforementioned COVID-19 period to display the dynamics over time. As mentioned to the point above, data visualisations are picked to support the story that you try to tell.

Well, what bothers me is the inversion we start observing from FEB-2021:

To me that means an increase of number of reports per player (or per hour played). You can explain that by:

• more offenses?
• or people being more picky/offended?
• people having more time to submit web reports?
• web reports submissions limits increased? (no idea if that was the case)

Anyway, not good. I believe you when you say that the record was done because of the high amount of the first six months. But I would have loved to see the curves for the rest of the graph during the following 6 months or even after.

[Random_Truck_Driver]

29 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Well, what bothers me is the inversion we start observing from FEB-2021:

 

I think a possible cause for this inversion could be this: https://truckersmp.com/blog/243

The timeline fits

 

 

[Foobrother]

3 minutes ago, Random_Truck_Driver said:

 

I think a possible cause for this inversion could be this: https://truckersmp.com/blog/243

Ahah I didn't think about it but maybe! More people playing with light vehicles 

[Nalet]

Besides the tables, an excellent explanatory text has been made about the development of the game. Thank u to all the developers who contributed and the team that made changes based on feedback from players. I also wish u success in your new job.

[_raffaele_]

6 hours ago, Foobrother said:

Please share the data which proves I'm wrong. I don't have access to data. I don't think you have it anyway. So I can only go with what I have and see. It's not because no data is available (or made available) that people are supposed to go in a direction that suits you.

My view is that ETS2 & TMP was initially a lot more played by mature simulation oriented players than over the last 2-3 years. Probably because the game became more and more popular and more and more customisable and cheap (to buy and to run). Plus Convoy which probably attracted a lot of these mature simulation players.

 

I quite like this article written in October 2019 which describes well the evolution of profiles I think: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/the-enduring-appeal-of-simulation-games

 

 

"My view is that ETS2 & TMP was initially a lot more played by mature simulation oriented players than over the last 2-3 years" - In fact, when they opted for a simulation server with a 90 limit in the past (before 2-3 years ago), people fled to the server with no speed limit, yep your view is spot on 

 

"Probably because the game became more and more popular and more and more customisable and cheap" - the game was always cheap and popular; after a steady growth over the years the number of players has remained stable in this "last period", since around Winter 2020 the average growth has stopped and the number of players has stabilised; following your logic with the covid the growth should be exponential, but even here it falls, this happens when one does not inform oneself well,

 

 

 

gameindustry.biz 

 

What a nice useless article, general things that everyone can say, written/reported things without evidence to support those claims, in this case? trust me bro, opinions nothing more 

 

I advise you to choose better sources, if you believe everything you see or read we are ruined, and explain many of your answers 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Foobrother said:

Well, what bothers me is the inversion we start observing from FEB-2021:

To me that means an increase of number of reports per player (or per hour played). You can explain that by:

• more offenses?
• or people being more picky/offended?
• people having more time to submit web reports?
• web reports submissions limits increased? (no idea if that was the case)

 

All you "can explain":

 

"people having more time to submit web reports?" - explain why the reports ratio remained the same even with people having more time during "covid" numbers compared to before RTS, so when people were going more that 150? and the number of players before RTS was practically in the average, during covid the average rose a little but nothing out of the norm, you see the lack of a following logic?

 

"or people being more picky/offended?" - you have no evidence for this claim, speculation

 

"web reports submissions limits increased?" - Following this logic, the ratio of reports should have increased, but even here your logic falls down, because the ratio remained the same,

 

According to your logic the ratio of reports should have increased given the increase in volumes because of covid, but it did not, in fact it remained the same as the period when there was no RTS (people were going much faster so another thing of your "logic", and before covid), this already dismantles all the arguments, claims and questions you are asking so far,

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Foobrother said:

 

Anyway, not good. I believe you when you say that the record was done because of the high amount of the first six months. But I would have loved to see the curves for the rest of the graph during the following 6 months or even after.

 

Learn more about statistics, you will find out why it is not included in this period, also some common sense will tell you why,

 

You are asking the same things over and over again

 

[Jeroen]

9 hours ago, Foobrother said:

Please share the data which proves I'm wrong.

 

The burden of proof is always on the side of the party making a claim.

 

 

9 hours ago, Foobrother said:

My view is that ETS2 & TMP was initially a lot more played by mature simulation oriented players than over the last 2-3 years. Probably because the game became more and more popular and more and more customisable and cheap (to buy and to run). Plus Convoy which probably attracted a lot of these mature simulation players.

 

Could be. I do not have data at my disposal with which we could determine such maturity levels through time.

 

 

9 hours ago, Foobrother said:

You lost me. Which comments are you talking about?

 

Like I said, there were a few comments arguing against the change on the basis of what the community was like before Road to Simulation was initiated. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Foobrother said:

Well, what bothers me is the inversion we start observing from FEB-2021:

 

 

To me that means an increase of number of reports per player (or per hour played). You can explain that by:

• more offenses?
• or people being more picky/offended?
• people having more time to submit web reports?
• web reports submissions limits increased? (no idea if that was the case)

 

Interesting one indeed. I cannot explain that inversion, nor have I (or anyone else) tried to look for an explanation anyway. Could also be an anomaly in the data for all we know. It's all speculation unless we would have more information available.

[Foobrother]

6 minutes ago, Jeronimο said:

 

The burden of proof is always on the side of the party making a claim.

 

 

 

Could be. I do not have data at my disposal with which we could determine such maturity levels through time.

 

 

 

Like I said, there were a few comments arguing against the change on the basis of what the community was like before Road to Simulation was initiated. 

 

 

 

Interesting one indeed. I cannot explain that inversion, nor have I (or anyone else) tried to look for an explanation anyway. Could also be an anomaly in the data for all we know. It's all speculation unless we would have more information available.

Thanks for your answers.

Well if you can't provide explanations (or are not interested to look for them), I'm sure you will understand if I stick with my views/ideas then.

[_raffaele_]

10 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Thanks for your answers.

Well if you can't provide explanations (or are not interested to look for them), I'm sure you will understand if I stick with my views/ideas then.

 

and your evidence for your "accusations" where is it?

 

All the time railing against TMP and not bringing a single proof of your allegations  

 

You guys are funny

[FernandoCR [ESP]]

22 minutes ago, Jeronimο said:

Like I said, there were a few comments arguing against the change on the basis of what the community was like before Road to Simulation was initiated.

There were also baseless and hasty assumptions about what the surveys would bring. And here we are. Only time will tell, of course, but experience is a factor. And in my experience, the majority of the players in TMP are the same or even less interested in simulation now than it used to be before RtS . The results in the survey should be proof of this.

[Jeroen]

23 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Well if you can't provide explanations (or are not interested to look for them), I'm sure you will understand if I stick with my views/ideas then.

 

That is absolutely fine  I fear this discussion has derailed a bit. I tried to provide the background information that you were seemingly looking for, albeit it is progressively shifting to an off-topic discussion. Some raised a hypothesis earlier in response to the project update, which I then tested based on actual data and statistical models that I had readily available. Generally, though, if you make a claim, the burden of proof is on your end; it is not up to me (or anyone else for that matter) to disprove it. The graph that is being dissected right now was made 1.5 years ago and merely provided a visual representation of the daily influx of reports per day in the aforementioned period, and the inversion you highlighted has nothing to do with this project update nor was it investigated to look for an explanation as it was (and still is) irrelevant for the topics at hand.

[Foobrother]

4 hours ago, Jeronimο said:

 I fear this discussion has derailed a bit. I tried to provide the background information that you were seemingly looking for, albeit it is progressively shifting to an off-topic discussion. Some raised a hypothesis earlier in response to the project update, which I then tested based on actual data and statistical models that I had readily available

You're right, we started by saying that the 150km/h rule would increase problems/reports. You said you didn't see that in the past when there were rules changes and gave very partial explanation/data about it and you shared the blog post about the reports from Jan 2022 (because I requested info about reports over time). I replied we can't really compare what happened 2+ years ago with now because profiles have changed. And I used the reports graph to show some evolution in people's behaviour over time. I've explained my view on how it evolved and why. You replied these were pure assumptions and I needed to prove it. I gave some elements including an article with comments from someone who "has been working in the industry for 35 years, and his company also operates simulation publisher Excalibur Games, which is responsible for franchises like Euro Truck Simulator and Train Simulator, among countless others in the genre.". Also pointed some alarming observations on the evolution of the reports graph. But the only feedback I got from you were neutral replies where you're basically not agreeing nor saying I'm wrong. And you didn't add more elements of explanation to it.

 

4 hours ago, Jeronimο said:

Generally, though, if you make a claim, the burden of proof is on your end; it is not up to me (or anyone else for that matter) to disprove it.

"Generally". But I don't think we are in that scenario. I'm a simple user while you are TMP's "Business Analyst". You have visibility on much more data/info than me. It's much easier for you to prove/disprove something compare to any of TMP normal users. So I find very unfair and easy to tell me I should prove what I'm suspecting with data rather than what I can only see/read from my user/player position. As mentioned above, you've shared some data with me and I thank you for that. I've used it to prove some of my points. But in return I'm getting either neutral replies or I'm told I'm derailing from the topic 

 

4 hours ago, Jeronimο said:

The graph that is being dissected right now was made 1.5 years ago and merely provided a visual representation of the daily influx of reports per day in the aforementioned period, and the inversion you highlighted has nothing to do with this project update nor was it investigated to look for an explanation as it was (and still is) irrelevant for the topics at hand.

I've explained above why it was used/mentioned in my argumentation.

[partyaap]

1 hour ago, Foobrother said:

You're right, we started by saying that the 150km/h rule would increase problems/reports. You said you didn't see that in the past when there were rules changes and gave very partial explanation/data about it and you shared the blog post about the reports from Jan 2022 (because I requested info about reports over time). I replied we can't really compare what happened 2+ years ago with now because profiles have changed. And I used the reports graph to show some evolution in people's behaviour over time. I've explained my view on how it evolved and why. You replied these were pure assumptions and I needed to prove it.

But what exactly is your reason to believe that there is a "change in profiles"? The anomaly in the graph is just 3 months, and doesn't continue through the last month of the graph.

 

Of all the data Jeronimo has, he concluded that a change in policy does not increase reports. Only an increase in average playtime increases reports, except for those 3 months you pointed out.

[Foobrother]

31 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

But what exactly is your reason to believe that there is a "change in profiles"?

I explained it several times in my previous post and shared some article where they also explain this change of profiles. Basically in the past before 2019-2020 people playing simulation game like ETS2 were more simulation oriented mature players (they even mention that some of the first adopters of ETS2 were groups of real-life truckers who wanted to continue their trucking experience during their free time ). But then because of the popularity of Youtube videos and other influencers content, it attracted more fun oriented people who are also interested in seeing unexpected/original things happen.

 

31 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

The anomaly in the graph is just 3 months, and doesn't continue through the last month of the graph.

This "anomaly" is indeed for 3-4 months, but we don't really see what happens later (just 2 months which look ok). And you don't see another 3 months anomaly the previous year. I personally know that the number of players remained low for the next 6 months and when I did submit reports at this period it was always saying "Very Busy" on the report system. But I don't have much more info true.

 

31 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

Of all the data Jeronimo has, he concluded that a change in policy does not increase reports. Only an increase in average playtime increases reports, except for those 3 months you pointed out.

I think I explained several times in my previous messages why I don't agree with his general affirmation that changing a policy doesn't increase reports. And what was true several years ago in a specific scenario with a specific population might not be true today with a different population and context.

[partyaap]

12 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

I explained it several times in my previous post and shared some article where they also explain this change of profiles. Basically in the past before 2019-2020 people playing simulation game like ETS2 were more simulation oriented mature players (they even mention that some of the first adopters of ETS2 were groups of real-life truckers who wanted to continue their trucking experience during their free time ). But then because of the popularity of Youtube videos and other influencers content, it attracted more fun oriented people who are also interested in seeing unexpected/original things happen.

 

This "anomaly" is indeed for 3-4 months, but we don't really see what happens later (just 2 months which look ok). And you don't see another 3 months anomaly the previous year. I personally know that the number of players remained low for the next 6 months and when I did submit reports at this period it was always saying "Very Busy" on the report system. But I don't have much more info true.

 

I think I explained several times in my previous messages why I don't agree with his general affirmation that changing a policy doesn't increase reports. And what was true several years ago in a specific scenario with a specific population might not be true today with a different population and context.

There have always been articles and YouTube videos about ETS2. Why would there be a radical change in playerbase since 2021 just because there are still articles and videos? That doesn't make sense.

 

If anything the videos about C-D chaos are way more popular than simulation videos. Wouldn't this proof the opposite of what you're saying?

[Foobrother]

29 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

There have always been articles and YouTube videos about ETS2. Why would there be a radical change in playerbase since 2021 just because there are still articles and videos? That doesn't make sense.

Did I ever say it never existed before? It's a problems of proportion/progression. And (again) as I mentioned in my previous posts, I do think the release of Convoy had an important impact in the switch from simulation profiles to racing profiles (in proportion). But I'm telling you now I won't continue the debate as I think I have given enough elements to show my view and I'm tired to repeat myself (and see others doing the same too).

 

29 minutes ago, StateCA [NL] said:

If anything the videos about C-D chaos are way more popular than simulation videos. Wouldn't this proof the opposite of what you're saying?

I would say that it actually goes in my favour! If there are more and more videos like that and they are more and more popular (more than the pure simulation ones), it means that players in majority are interested/attracted by the chaos/offenses of C-D and find them fun (as I explained earlier).

 

Anyway, I'm tired. I leave this space to others if they want to give their views. Thx all for your contributions!

[_raffaele_]

3 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Did I ever say it never existed before? It's a problems of proportion/progression. And (again) as I mentioned in my previous posts, I do think the release of Convoy had an important impact in the switch from simulation profiles to racing profiles (in proportion). But I'm telling now I won't continue the debate as I think I have given enough elements to show my view and I'm tired to repeat myself (and see others doing the same too).

 

You don't continue the debate because you finally realised you have no arguments/evidences, so it will only go worse and worse; again, what is the problem proportion/progression? what does it even mean, you talk explaining nothing, how someone can even take you seriously 

 

You've repeated yourself so many times already and concluded nothing 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Foobrother said:

Anyway, I'm tired. I leave this space to others if they want to give their views. 

 

At least I hope their contribution is not like yours which was just speculation/accusation, without any concrete evidence 

 

[MZ-Aria.]

A good step forward to listen too the community and also less strict on bans cuz sometimes it happen by accident.

[partyaap]

19 hours ago, Foobrother said:

I would say that it actually goes in my favour! If there are more and more videos like that and they are more and more popular (more than the pure simulation ones), it means that players in majority are interested/attracted by the chaos/offenses of C-D and find them fun (as I explained earlier).

How exactly is it in your favour when your entire argument has been that changing to 150 is stupid as it attracts more reports, and is not in line with the community because there are more simulation profiles now than 2 years ago?

 

 

[louie1990]

daft really what truck in real life does 150mph? meant to  be a realistic game right?LOL

[Foobrother]

1 hour ago, StateCA [NL] said:

and is not in line with the community because there are more simulation profiles now than 2 years ago?

You didn't understand what I said. I said the opposite: more racing profiles now than to 2 years ago (kept on growing over time)

[_raffaele_]

1 hour ago, Foobrother said:

You didn't understand what I said. I said the opposite: more racing profiles now than to 2 years ago (kept on growing over time)

 

You quoted an article from 4 years ago by someone who gives an opinion without concrete evidence of what he says is his perception of "simulator games players", which has nothing to do with TMP,

 

ETS2 and TMP are not the same thing, the majority of the community that plays ETS2 doesn't even play TMP, so you have to rely on what the TMP community is,

 

 

 

"more racing profiles now than to 2 years ago (kept on growing over time)" - you have no evidence to claim that, the link you posted refers to 4 years ago, what does this have to do with "now than 2 years ago" ; been outdated for years and you still rely on that, and you rely on opinions about ETS2 from 4 years ago that have nothing to do with TMP, you can't even define who the "racing profiles" are exactly, how many there are, but you're sure there are more now than 2 years ago,

 

From the data shared by TMP, since the ratio of reports has not changed, logically the "profiles" has not changed either in all this years (TMP history shows that), otherwise, if there were more "racing profiles" according to your logic there should be an increase in the ratio, simple logic, you even deny the evidence,

 

 

 

 

 

If you have nothing, you are not forced; can't you see how random and nonsensical it is? This is what haters do, go against no matter what

[partyaap]

9 hours ago, Foobrother said:

You didn't understand what I said. I said the opposite: more racing profiles now than to 2 years ago (kept on growing over time)

Yeah. I assumed when you were talking about more simulation oriented people playing that you meant TruckersMP, not singleplayer.

 

If you believe people on TruckersMP are more casual and not that interested in simulation, then why are you against these changes?